Windows Windows 8 Marmite thread... Because you either love it or hate it

Kotaku really seem to have some terrible reporting. It's another meandering baseless article from them. The first few comments call her B/S out.

Unificiation of devices, I can take it or leave it. As pc enthusiasts we will more than likely keep our massive boxes for a while yet. But the fact remains that the Metro UI is still very much a half baked implementation of this convergance. Fine its a step towards unification, but its also a step back from regular usability on the desktop. I would cite gnome 3 as something which has a much better implementation of a full screen start menu which is both touch and mouse friendly.



It has a regularly used applications down the left. Granted this can be done in windows by pinning to the taskbar, however the automatic listing in the start menu was something I used a lot and is now gone. It has a search all box visible on the right. Search all isn't default on metro. Not only that but the search is hidden in the right side menu which you then click on, which opens up a new version of the start screen and then you type and then you click the category and finally the item you are searching for. I understand you can just start typing, but if day to day people don't see a search box this is the approach they will take. Gnome has vertical rather than horizontal scrolling

The effect of the start screen coming in over the desktop is much less jarring thanks to it coming in with a translucence effect over the desktop. Probably, most importantly it organises icons by all or type, i.e. accessories, system tools, sound and video etc. This sort of classification is important. I find it very useful when using linux and I may not be sure what the name of the program I require is. But if I know what type of program it is, for example a media player under sound and vision I can quickly find the program I need. When I used gnome 3 it wasn't where's my start menu! It was simply oh right, this is how we do things now. Not only that it was intuitive to use from the get go, another thing which is missing from metro.

On my windows 7 its two clicks but that's irrelevant because..

The number of clicks is not a valid metric of the amount of interaction required to perform a task. Double clicking on an icon is not the same as for example(an exaggerated example) clicking once on the bottom left of the screen and once on the top right of the screen, yet both actions take the same number of clicks. To further complicate things I can probably start a program like calculator quicker through the run input and typing calc than I can through normal mouse usage on metro or windows 7.

The bottom line is that Microsoft have not fully implemented the Metro interface for desktop users. There's so much missing a part from what I have already mentioned, restricting the metro API to not allow desktop API's interaction. Multitasking metro apps on a desktop is poor. They have dropped the ball completely by not having proper touch gesture support on they're weird wedge mouse. Installing desktop programs leaves your start screen in a complete mess, requiring manual organisation as does turning on the extra admin icons. It has lost first time intuitive use of the gui by requiring the user to discover menu's and other interaction things which are hidden off screen. This flies in the face of the ribbon in explorer and office where all your options are presented to you. I'm sure there's more. Visions of the future are fine but when they are executed this poorly who wants it? Microsoft could of won great support for windows 8 if it had implemented a desktop version of metro properly. Instead it's half baked and the overall reaction to it is just as tepid.

There's ways around this, write an email at 5 pm before leaving the office and send it from home at 10pm for example.

 

I've been usign windows 8 for I while and I can't really find a reason to dislike it - certainly not as much as some of these reporters seem to. It's running on my 6+year old hp laptop and it runs fine (if not better than windows 7).

The desktop experiance is essentially the same as it always as been, and the same as windows 7 without the start menu, areo and drop down menus in explorer. This is no big deal to me as I start programs that aren't on the tasbar (which I rarely do) the same way: start>type a few letters>hit enter. Aero I quite liked but... meh.

However there are some new features which I do like: multi-monitor taskbar support, the new file history, spaces. Not worth the upgrade on their own but if you're buying a new PC anyway or only have OEM OS.

Yes the joining of metro and traditional desktop is far from perfect (the two different control panels is one thing that really bothers me) but think of it this way: you have a normal desktop with the ability to use any tablet/phone apps that you have bought/downloaded. Similarly if you have a x86 tablet you'll probably spend most of your time in the metro environment but with the ability to use a full desktop application if you really need to. additionaly just connect a keyboard and you have a full ultrabook type laptop and can use the normal desktop as if it were just another laptop. If you don't need to run desktop applications then save some money and gain some battery life and get the RT version.

I think the next version will be interesting as this is really what microsoft is sowing the seeds for. Windows 9, Windows 9RT, Windows Phone 9 and Xbox720 or whatever they're called. All with unified accounts and app store. Your Xbox then becomes your TV box, media centre and games machine with some home server functionality running a cutdown Windows 9 Metro UI/Media Centre OS, Running any metro apps, email apps etc. Then, for example, if you puchased a game (anrgy birds type game) through the app store then it be available to play (with sync high scores/saved games) on your Desktop, Xbox and Phone/Tablet. You can see the potential.

It is this last point which could prove troublesome for PC gamers/developers as the incentive for making 'full' games for pc is somewhat reduced and this could see pc games being reduced to just strategy and mmos. The desktop top computer could then die out and for consumers just leave Windows Pro laptops/tablet convertables, Tablets, phones and the xbox/media centre.

But at the moment what we have is options - which are good. Want a traditional desktop experiance - you go that, want a touch screen tablet friendly OS and Apps - you got that, need to use a bit of both - you got that too (even if it is a bit clunky)

 

Greetings!

Mentioned screen size, not resolution.

With no official way to opt-out of Start Screen and Charms.

Thinking that Windows 8 will be a huge sales success. Wouldnt be surprised if Microsoft reported the combined sales of Windows 8, Windows RT and WP8 together.

 

You are still stuck to the idea of a device used in only one configuration. Hook your mobile up to a desktop monitor, and all of a sudden it has a big screen size, see?

I think you should have a close look at Xerox STAR. Or MS Windows 1.0 --but you are probably too young to remember those. The limitations were huge. You could not overlap windows. You could not drag and drop between windows. And the mouse? Nobody could see it as a serious input device for business applications.

If we had rejected those iterations based on their initial limitations, we would never have got to the Windows 7 you so praise today.

 

Greetings!

So glad that now using Metro we have those features.

But 8, once customized, is better than 7.

 

There is a difference between being limited by available knowledge and technology and executing current knowledge and technology poorly.

 

We have them on a desktop when we need them. When we want a simpler mobile touch interface we have Metro.

What knowledge do we have about convergent multi-role, multi-configuration devices that are only just becoming possible? It's another new frontier, just like desktop devices were then.

 

I would imagine huge amounts of data have been compiled by google apple and Microsoft. As well as other studies commisioned for third parties like acer samsung etc. If people are using a device then these companies know about it and how its used. If the device doesn't exist then its all conjecture based on current trends.

What we do know about is GUIs. GUIs have been around for years. I can only imagine the amount of information available on GUI design. Metro is a poorly implemented GUI which is not effective on the desktop. It can't be excused by a lack of knowledge or technology.

If I have a small Metro device that I plug into a docking station for keyboard mouse and large screen all the same issues I have with Metro on desktop will still be there.

I would also point you towards ubuntu for android. Which will have regular android interface for phone, plug it into a docking station and you have an ubuntu desktop. They are acknowledging that a single device can be multi-purpose including how you interact with it.

here's a video:

 

Not from Apple or Google, or at least, not until recently.

Google JUST started to take into consideration GUI design with Android 4, and present guidelines. Before that, it was just done randomly on what looks like alright. In the early days, Android got a pass because it was new. Afterwards, it was manufacture doing their own custom layout, so it didn't mater beside confusing the crap out of people as each Android device was almost night and day different between each other. At that time people didn't mind, because people liked the customizability and that it was not Apple.

Apple used the same recipe since day 1, and don't have nay formal guidelines, or thought process. It worked the first time, let's not touch it. Everything from Apple is super safe, and 0 innovations. Multi-display on a Mac, just an example, doesn't work. The menu bar is one screen, while your software is on the other. The close and maximize button act differently between folders and programs, and each program has different behavior. iOS layout is the exact same as old stylus notebooks/calendar type of devices. Back then it was done like this due to the limited colors (2), and the very crummy resistive screen. Apple doesn't have a research facility like Microsoft has.

Microsoft collects user usage of their system. They have a whole telemetry system in place. They know how many time you click on an icon, and the time of icons it is (shortcut, file, folder, etc). They have a full research facility, doing research non stop, on everything about everything. Microsoft gets user feedback and employee feedback. Employees at Microsoft uses their alpha version of the OS/Office/ and all other products (Microsoft calls it "Dog feeding"). Their feedback is considered seriously, and everyone suffers through bugs and issues, to make sure that they are solved. Plus they are, obviously, heavy users, and multi-taskers.
Moreover, they get external developer, and users (us) feedback and usage, by keeping Microsoft vision and goal (unified OS).

Funny thing, is that Apple is moving MacOS turning it into iOS, with every new version. Yet people don't complain. It's a question of time because Apple just pull the plug on MacOS, and iOS goes on their desktop. Yet everyone is fine with that.

 

In that case, could Microsoft be on to something and you just can't see it yet?

Says you. Microsoft, which, as you say, has collected masses of data on this, says different. It is rough around the edges because Microsoft is in effect turning an oil tanker. But it will get a lot better, very fast.

Except that you can drop to desktop and use your device as you are using your Windows 7 device now. Undocked you can use Metro.

So how is that different from Microsoft's solution?

 

Absolutely! But it can also be onto the next surface table top thing or all of the precursor tablets to the latest surface tablets. Ultimately I can only comment on what I see. There are plenty of improvements which I would like to see but may never come.

Your darn right says me.I'm not saying just Microsoft, I would think that there have been studies from various industries and academia. I hope it does improve, a lot of my gripes are easy to fix. If those improvements do come I would ask why they would release the software without these improvements, or as I've said half baked.

Except I need to navigate the mess of icons to start my desktop programs. I also need to use metro to do some control panel stuff, use the poor search setup etc. Its unavoidable.

When you use it in desktop mode you get a desktop interface, with no need to use the android interface. When it's a phone you use the android interface with no need to use the desktop. Simple really. Your never using the wrong interface for the job.

 

So let's say I want to access a Metro app, 'cause it is my mobile phone connected to a dock. Now I can't... because it's on "Desktop mode". So THAT doesn't work. And you think developer will now start making application that has 2 interface mode? That's even more silly. I can assure you that one of the modes it will be half baked.

 

Who says you can't? While I don't know the ins and outs of ubuntu on android, I did see the android menu in a window in the ubuntu desktop in the video. So its reasonable to assume that apps can be accessed from the desktop and if so it would probably run in a window. No I don't think a developer would make applications with two interface modes, your right that would be silly.

 

The release preview is damn good imo. There's a few issues though:

My gf asked me yesterday how to open the calculator. She wasn't keen on searching to find it, instead I found myself having to tell her how to navigate to all programs: click start, that's the bottom left -> right click on a blank area of the start screen -> click all programs in the bottom right -> find calculator in the messy list of programs. I've since pinned it to the start screen, but I highly doubt she would have been able to find it on her own, and this is a little worrying, because there are plenty of programs which aren't visible on the start screen as default, and I think a lot of people will struggle to find them.

This might be where metro equivalents will come in useful. It's easy enough to download one of the metro calculators already available in the store, but at the same time a full-screen calculator on a 24" monitor is a little ott. Works well pinned to one edge though.

Another issue already brought up here is the mess that desktop programs make of the start screen. 3ds Max Design 2013 is a good example. Installing this program dumps a shortcut for every language on the start screen, as well as a bunch of other shortcuts. This isn't necessarily MS's fault, because it just goes to show how much c**p some programs dumped into the start menu (mostly unnecessary imo, why install shortcuts for all languages when I'd already selected English when installing?). Companies are going to have to keep things much tidier in future, but unfortunately installing all current programs will require re-organizing of the start screen, something which doesn't bother me, because I already used to re-organize the start menu on XP, Vista and 7.

I'm very disappointed that Media Center hasn't had a re-design to tie in the the 'metro' theme. Maybe this will be changed for the final release, but the whole feeling of Media Center is still very much as it was 7ish years ago when XP MCE first appeared. I use the Media Browser plugin on my Windows 7 based Media PC, and will soon be switching to XBMC. The default experience of Media Center needs to be brought more in-line with these.

Thankfully, some programs which I was having issues with during the previous previews, such as Google Chrome and Autodesk AutoCAD 2013 have been fixed. I've ran into one crash so far, but after a hard restart, Windows booted back up as I'd left it, with all tabs in Chrome as I left them, my unsaved work in AutoCAD still there, and the video file I was playing in MPC still paused in the same place. Very impressed.

 

I guess this just needs to be a bit of an attitude shift, as we've (I know we mostly use shortcuts) been used to looking for stuff on the screen and then clicking on it.

Once you get used to the idea of search for programs/emails/documents it really is a lot easier in general.

The process is a lot easier to explain too "Press 'start' type 'calc' hit enter".

 

I have just noticed that Windows 8 Pro 32 and 64-bit full is available on MSDNAA. I'll have to install it.

 

It was on MSDN on the 8th, been rocking the RTM Enterprise version since then - it's very nice. Not quite sure why so many people are bashing the interface.. it's nicer than the Win7 one:/

 

you could have just pressed windows + r and typed calc

 

I recall looking at the 9th on MSNDAA, and it was not there.. I guess it just took a bit more time to get to the Academic Side.

 

Yup I know, but it was more an observation about how someone who's not confident with technology grasps the new Windows 8 interface. On the one hand the start screen makes things very easy and intuitive, however it was interesting to see how she struggled when she had to scratch the surface if you will. Windows 8 is a change, one I personally really like, but I'm not so sure how the computer illiterate (people like my parents who never remember that I've set up an e-mail client instead of navigating to hotmail etc.) are going to handle some of the 'hidden' options and menus in Windows 8 such as the hot corners, and the right click menu's on the start screen, although this should be somewhat familiar as right click menu's have been around a long time. Still people are used to navigating to files, folders and applications by clicking on visible buttons, icons or folders using their mouse.

Like I said this isn't a criticism of Windows 8, rather an observation. I just hope the general public aren't as quick as the media to criticize change, although I'm sure a lot of people's opinions are unfortunately already being shaped by the Windows 8 bashing media. Such a shame that so many articles have next to no reasoning behind their dislike, other than 'oh noez, start menu be gone so Win 8 = tablet OS'.