WTF is this forum coming to? Awesome discussions on life, the universe & everything!

Do the mods draw straws to determine who looks into his private album with Nexxo on standby to provide counseling?

Could one of the mods email MVAGusta and let him know we are concerned about him?

I hear you Supermonkey. I have been a member here for almost a third of my life and luckily have a job which allows me to browse the site frequently during the day.

 

Sorry to detract from the current, and original, topic, but my coworkers and I were having an interesting conversation about some of the earlier parts of this thread; especially the topics related to life and consciousness.

I am not going to say that I understand the subject completely since I know that I am in the middle of a crisis of faith, but these were some points made by others that I thought I would share to see what people like Kayin, Nexxo, et al. thought of the situations I am about to list. The reason this was brought up for discussions was because the situations can work inside the framework of religious faiths and beliefs as well as atheism, but depending on your view point can cause many different potential outcomes.

As you all know, eventually the computing will reach a point where we will be able to download our thoughts, one of the many singularities within computing. However, if we are to assume the human consciousness is dependent on the exact electrical functions within the brain at the time you are downloaded or linked to the soul, what happens to "you" when you are downloaded?

Extrapolating this fact to a former point made by Nexxo regarding people who die on the operating table, if all brain electrical function goes to 0, or in religion the human soul passes from the body. If you are brought back, what is to say that the person with all your thoughts and memories is really the original "you"? i.e. is your original stream of consciousness the same as it was before you passed on the operating table or before you were resuscitated?

For religion, this means your soul coming back into your body for the case on the operating table, however if you are an atheist, assuming no medical reasoning, which I have missed one hence why I am asking our resident psychologist, what is not to say that the person brought back, although with the same memories and personalities is not "you" but just another copy like a clone?

Coming back to the original scenario of the computational singularity, my coworkers decided that the only way one could preserve their original stream of consciousness would be to perform the equivalent of exploring the network (ala many Anime shows out there) and then to have your body killed once you had been downloaded. However, if there is now 2 copies of your consciousness, which one is the prevailing?

 

Honestly, I'm not convinced that the singularity is a done deal. Not only do we need multiple orders of magnitude more powerful hardware, we would need a perfect understanding of the human brain, how it worked, and how to replicate it in software. I'm not sure it's something that can truly be realized. I'm just not sure we'll ever achieve that. FTL spaceflight is a much more attainable goal, in comparison.

I get asked this a lot, simply because I'm sick with something that is actively killing me. What would happen, who is the real me and et cetera. Well, I thought about it anyway. First, it would be massively unethical to start keeping extra copies of oneself around. People go nuts (literally) when they get confronted with things they utterly cannot process. Meeting yourself would likely be one of those issues. I don't think we're equipped as humans to actually process it. People have nervous breakdowns over people merely impersonating them. Ethically speaking (and I know just how immutable ethics stays) any copies would need to be erased (securely) and there would be one working copy at a time. Unless you have a real-time backup, any backups are dangerous in their own right.

But let's chase that rabbit-we're already down the rabbit-hole, after all. Assuming an instantaneous backup system, and a waiting body (clone, robot, whatever) people become effectively immortal. Anything that happens is a hardware issue, restore the OS and done. People do not deal with the concept of eternity well. Hell, look at how people act concerning the afterlife now-or how many people live like there's no tomorrow, for the reason that there's no guarantee of tomorrow. Imagine a person who doesn't have to experience consequences for their actions. I died from that? Next body, please.

But if this happens, won't it come at a steep price? I mean, altruism is almost dead now-do we expect it to come back in full force? So won't we have effectively immortal rich people lording over a finite-spanned proletariate. That's what we like to call a bad thing. It would be unethical to even assist a person in doing so. (While I don't think altruism is eternal, I do expect people will argue in the future.)

But what would happen if an older backup were activated after the death of the host? Would it have been your actions? I argue no, you're a new person. If you don't have the memories, the experiences, how could it have been you? Imagine the court cases. My client is a backup, dated XXXX, this happened at XXXX+n, which is clearly after the date of said backup.

This is a cursory examination of a topic that is neither cursory nor easy to grasp. As to the unstated question here, would I use it if I had it available, no. I believe that we all owe God a death, and while I'm somewhat saddened that mine will be "early," I will have lived a full (if not always good) life and my passing makes room for another whose story is beginning. I'm not even really that interested in the concept of getting a perfect body. This old one has seen me through a lot. I'm kinda attached to it. Even if it is breaking down.

 

C-Snipe you should read Richard Morgans Altered Carbon, it's about these subjects.

 

...and you may want to watch these 1,2,3 documentaries. Only 1 & 2 are really relevant to the topic, but 3 is also worth watching.

This is actually one of my favourite topics. However, I've always seen it in terms of separation of bits from atoms - much like copying a CD - The album isn't inseparable from from the physical medium in which it resides; The album is simply a stream of information...As an atheist I see my self as a product of the physical world, not an unseen spiritual one, and I've never actually considered it from a religious point-of-view until reading those 2 posts. This thread might actually get interesting again...

 

What do you mean "might"?

This thread is always interesting... it just goes dormant every so often.

 

At work on mobile now but looking forward to explore this topic. It would seem reasonable to me to hypothesise that if you downloaded your consciousness into a genetically and physically identical you then you could almost be two people at once, but two things get in the way: scientists might be able to clone DNA but cloning the physical state of the body (i.e. getting all the muscles, joints, skin etc. to the same degree of growth/decay and giving the two bodies the same history) seems much harder to achieve with not enough incentive to bother doing it, so while DNA will be the same the body won't be, and; as far as I'm aware two people can't occupy the same space at the same time, so their perspectives of new experiences can never be identical. Therefore whatever you do with your consciousness there can only ever be one you.

 

I shall give them a gander this weekend. Thanks for the resources!

Hey, if they can prove FTL spaceflight is possible, I know that eventually it will come back to us engineers to make it happen. [/wishful thinking]

Ah! Herein lies the question that I am getting at, and that I poorly worded in my first post. Assuming you are duplicated by downloading your brain, die on the operating table, etc. What is not to say that your current state of mind and stream of consciousness doesn't leave and become re-built when you are brought back? For religion, ethical issues aside, this would mean our soul coming to occupy our body; however, if you do not believe in religion or an afterlife would this not be considered the end of your existence as YOU know it?

 

My first guess would be that You die. Therefore, for You to be revived they would need to somehow capture your consciousness after you have died, because anything they capture before that point would be an incomplete version of You, one before you experienced death. So should they put that consciousness into another body, but it wouldn't be the You that died. And once You're dead... capturing your consciousness would be, by definition, impossible.

 

I've read altered carbon and whilst a good read, Morgan's use of the C word is downright cringe worthy at times.

 

Sounds right up my street, I'll check it out

 

Can those old hands that post about the 'good old days' and how the forum is in decline please take the time to ensure that their posts don't offend the (hundreds?) of new members that are an extremely positive influence on the forum.

Despite some members apparent depression over the state of affairs, it still remains, for myself and many others, the best, and friendliest forum on the internet.

Now, lets all go and upgrade.

 

Believe me, you're not part of the problem as far as I can see.

Sorry i've been so absent, another hospital stay, I'm now fitted with a home EKG monitor and I'm fighting shortness of breath (my reserve capacity is down to 28%, though total capacity is something like 55%) and lots and lots of pain from a hiatal hernia (which may be causing lots of my breathing issues.) I sleep a lot now, and I'm not up much even when I'm awake. Doctors remain optimistic that a lot of this can be remedied, just taking time to sort out what's going on. There's also serious concern about mitral insufficiency, which may be compounding the fatigue/lightheadedness/nausea.

Things just generally suck right now, though I'm still trying to progress with Knight's Rest and I'm getting some writing done. I'm trying not to let this get me down. UAB has been great with the assistance I'm getting, and their doctors are really second to none. But if I'm not here and you guys want my opinion on something, shoot me a PM and I'll look at it when I log on next. I'm only coherent part of the day right now.

 

Sucks, man. I hope that some of your problems can get sorted out soon.

 

I thought this TED talk might be an interesting continuation on the discussion of the singularity.

 

Dude. Been there. Done that. T-shirt. Its sucks.

My hernia led to my stomach acid eating the poor excuse for the valve at the top of my stomach, and I've now got massive scaring up my esophagus. However, with mine I couldn't sleep, which was the worst thing. When youre tired everything gets worse.

Are you going to have surgery to fix it? I remember waking up after mine (first time round having it) and suddenly feeling a million times better. I had one of these. Well, two.

 

Currently, we don't exactly know what's going on. I happen to have a hiatal hernia that's untreated, yes. I also have abnormalities on my EKG in the hospital at the exact point of the coughing fits-and it was one that was enough to scare them into fitting me with this monstrosity. I reapplied for disability yesterday, and the woman that handled my application honestly was shocked I was turned down the last time.

Now, I happen to most likely have another hernia forcing its way through my abdominal wall (and for those not acquainted with the concept, it hurts like hell) which would complicate things with the hernia repair (if they even decide to do it, which might surprise you but is unlikely until I get insurance.) Unless it becomes more severe and I wander back into the ER (happens a lot for me, for legitimate reasons-they even know me there) I don't expect much done about most o my problems until I get insurance. I have doctors who genuinely want to help, and I have doctors that want to see what the progression of Marfan's does to someone. I'm a real life Tuskeegee experiment now. Watch medical ethics fly right the hell out the window when you have something sufficiently rare.

Generally speaking, they're gonna have to do something about it, or I'm going to run out of oxygen. Except wait, no, they actually don't care about that. I've come to find out that I'm not really anything but an oddity to most of the doctors, because I present something they don't like-I'm incurable. And because I present problems that they don't know what to do about, they ignore me. I find it a common thread with other sufferers of my disease.

If I sound upset, bitter, and resigned to my fate, congratulations, get yourself a cookie. Though believe me, it's not pointed at you guys. You asked legitimate questions out of concern (and sometimes, shared experience) and weren't attempting to patronize me. I understand that, but my level of frustration with the medical field at the moment is reaching critical mass. I'm not expecting any of you to blame me on that count.

 

Wish there was a cure. You are a reminder as to why I refrain from complaining. It's inspirational.

 

People forget something, and it's not because they're dumb. It's because of genuine sympathy, and I have a very unique view on the subject.

While there's life there's hope. There are scientists working on actually functional and durable artificial hearts. They can replace blown blood vessels. Supplemental oxygen is something I'm intimately acquainted with. They're already looking at fitting me with next-gen hip, knee and shoulder replacements. What am I getting at?

I'm not dead yet. And there are people every day in beds across this country and around the world that will die no matter what intervention is undertaken. I might be in pain, but I am still able to do some things. I have so much more life than they do, even if you have as much more than me. I try not to complain too much. As it could be worse for you, so could it for me. I know parents who have lost six year old children to this disease. And I don't mean the kid passed comfortably in his sleep-their child died in screaming agony in a public place with blood pouring from around his eye sockets. Or vomiting their entire blood supply up onto the street. Against such, I'm practically fine. And I still have a hope they never will.

What's the use of such suffering, preacher man? Got an answer for us? If I tell the truth, only part of one. And even I struggle with it sometimes.

Suffering, if we step back and become impersonal for a moment, is a part of life whether we want it or not. It doesn't respect people, it cares not for your possessions, and no amount of money will buy it off if it really wants you. Its sense of right and wrong doesn't exist-it will just as greedily accept children as it will a vile wreck of a man who by society's measure should exist in it. Suffering must be evil, right? Hah. We're personifying something that isn't sentient, has no way to pick and choose and really is simply a condition, not a thing. We do it because we can't wrap our minds around it. It's even harder to get our minds around its completely random nature. So we make it into something we can vilify, and then we try to hide from it. It's not the boogeyman, folks.

To hide from it, we have to turn our backs on the ones doing the suffering, and never think about what they're going through. Give some money to starving orphans in East Get****edistan, I've done my bit to assuage suffering and I don't have to hear about it any more. This isn't aimed at Bit, it's a sweeping generalization. We all know about those. Because if we think about suffering, we have to think about why, and that introduces a bunch of existential questions most people honestly aren't smart enough to answer. We here are, for the most part, and we've been trying to sort them out.

So what do you say to the answer of suffering? For me, it's simply a byproduct of life. Hell, sometimes it's something we do to each other. For every guy that got the girl, another one seethes in hated because he wasn't picked. For every philanthropist that gives their fortune away, many more intentionally starve their households and even the surrounding areas to feed their lavish lifestyles. Hell is other people, as many have said.

So what happened to you? You were born this way. You didn't do anything to deserve this.

Maybe so, but instead of sitting at home simply bitching about it, I'm allowing people to learn from it. Maybe my suffering will help someone else. Suffering's meaning is sometimes only what you can turn good from it. And sometimes, I don't think it has one. I'm sure someone expected a reference to God in there, but I have more musings on that matter for later.