WTF is this forum coming to? Awesome discussions on life, the universe & everything!

I think Hell is whatever is going on in thehippoz' head. The guy is obviously in torment.

 

Hell is a fancy dress party in a rural pub with a mobile disco. I wouldn't be surprised if Spec has some experience of this.

 

We're geeks. I would think hell would be more like getting to the pearly gates, taking a step to enter heaven, then running into a giant Flash-driven pop-up video ad featuring a certain bikini-clad old lady trying to sell us performance enhancing pills.

 

So Hell is the Demote thread?

All of a sudden, so many things make perfect sense...

 

Rather than me start a new thread, I thought I'd reignite the afterburners on this one..:

While having a discussion about gay marriage in America a very intelligent (Scholar, 1st from Ox, PhD etc) friend of ours ended up saying "Anyone who believes in God in crazy.." He then went on to clarify that by crazy, he meant mentally ill as opposed to say stupid.

This guy is very strongly atheist, a scientist and biologist and his PhD is to do with evolution, so he has a fair idea what he is talking about, however, he would not move from his opening line that they are 'crazy'

His reasoning was that, if they believe evidence about certain things, why don't they believe evidence about all things, and how can they believe that gay marriage will usher in the anti Christ, or that Obama is a Muslim fundamentalist.

I take his point that they might be ill informed, mislead, brain washed, ignorant or just plain stupid, but just because you believe a certain thing or faith in a deity, is not reason to be classed as 'crazy'. He also said that in modern society religion has no place in government as it is completely disproved, and as such is irrelevant as it is only used to force moral agendas. He quoted some philosopher for his reasoning on disregarding only some evidence, but the name escapes me, and the majority of what he said made sense with me, however, I think his conclusion is bang wrong.

I'd like to see others thoughts on this, including what atheists think. I'd like to know if you believe those with Religious Beliefs are wrong, ignorant, ill informed, 'crazy' or if you're happy to let people believe what they want to.

 

I'm happy to let people believe what they want I just do not want them to be able to force their beliefs on their children or others.

 

I'm happy to let people believe what they want. I still personally think they're crazy/brainwashed, but I'd never tell them that to their face.

Oh wait... I just sort of did.

 

I'm also happy to let people believe or not believe what they want so long as everyone else doesn't have to change their way of life just to accommodate them.
I have a friend who lectures at Cambridge and tbh I think the so called intellectuals have some of the most closed minds I've ever encountered.

 

Some people need a support structure mentally as well as physical (establishments), they just do. A problem most academics and intellectuals have is (rather like the tech industry) they seem to ignore that they are in the minority with the majority of the population not being intellectual of having comparable mental fortitude. They just don't accept that people can be 'crazy' and not understand to look past the spiel that the religions (or tech companies) spew out to garner interest.

Personally I don't need to believe that there is a higher being who 'believes in me' when I need to perform difficult tasks or 'guarding me' when in a tricky spot. I have encountered trying situations but got through them just fine with self-belief and a bit of luck. I do understand how others might need the psychological force though. I have friends who work for the church, some because it is just an easy route to helping those less fortunate and others because they want to have a place in heaven and, before that comes, a guardian looking over them.

My general line is, like those above me, people can believe whatever they like as long as they don't force it on anyone. If they are rearing children, give them all sides of the story and let the child decide, however difficult that may to bear with most religions being spread to "save" their offspring which is a hard argument to win if they aren't your children.

 

hmmm... interesting reading - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder#Indicators_of_a_delusion

 

I don't have any religious beliefs, and I'm quite happy to leave it there and not comment on it unless asked. Each to his own, and all that.

However, I find those that are afflicted with faith almost incapable of keeping it to themselves; yet are quick to squeal when other react adversely to having their views shoved down their throat.

I can't remember the last time an atheist knocked on my door to tell me all about the non-existence of god!

 

So close...

 

I don't mind people what they want aslong as they don't try to make me believe the same thing if I've told them I'm not interested.

 

The old analogy between a belief and a penis is still what I consider one of the best explanations.

"A belief, whether it be religion or atheism, is like a penis; it is great to be proud of it, but don't take it out and start trying to touch other people with it"

 

More than once, I think, in this thread, I invited believers to account for the origins of their belief, but so far as I kept up with the thread each time I didn't get anyone taking me up on my invitation. Obviously I'm not gunna take this thread as representative, but at the same time it does nothing to turn me away from the idea that believers are just in denial, for which there are all manner of possible reasons.

Some will have just been indoctrinated hard since birth with belief and that to divert from that path would be such a betrayal of their parents etc. or just too hard a thing to do (too messy, too much casting aside everything that you had based your identity on). Others maintain it because it's good for the image within their community, good for business etc. Others out of hope/fear.

Does that make them crazy? Depends on your definition I guess. I s'pose if you're atheist then your logic would say that they are.

What chapter of the bible was this fella in?

 

On several occasions myself and Kayin have provided answers to this question (as it has been asked by different members) and it has resulted in the usual prejudiced remarks about experience and conviction carrying no weight. (Nexxo accedes to their value, but then Nexxo is reasonable ).

As for your reluctance to let go of the idea that the origin of theism is indoctrination, take this post from May 2nd:

This demonstrates that you choose to disregard clear answers and return to your square one opinion that indoctrination is at the foundation of theism. If you ask a question but are not prepared to listen to the answer, why ask?

@ Mankz, for this guy to claim that a person is crazy for believing in God is pure arrogance; the only way he could verify it to be a crazy belief would be if he had conclusive evidence that God did not exist. It's pretty simple, really. His opinion is invalid, but he's entitled to it all the same.

 

First thing I get from this: further proof that successful and intelligent people are perfectly capable of having their own little bits of crazy about them. And when I say crazy, I mean it closer to stupid rather than mentally ill.

The bit about believing some evidence and not all is the indicator of someone who's gone equally into the deep end when it comes to feverishly believing or not believing in something. The magical thing about the human brain is the ability of two brains to recieve the same input and come to different conclusions, without one being strictly correct or incorrect. Various factors such as who is making the claim, how existing believes align with the new claim, or how various biases may make believing the claim to be true to be more favorable can all change how someone sees a certain claim. A common case such as parents teaching a child about religion can often make it more believable because of this. Children trust their parents, they likely have been taught morals that agree with it and reaffirm its truth, and believing may be favorable for relating to a group, comfort in faith, what have you. I'd hardly call someone mentally ill for reaching a fairly understandable conclusion. EDIT: Lenny's linked post above is an even better real world case of his reason for believing aligning with other facts which give it validty.

Of course, the myriad of religious beliefs makes the claim of craziness even more crazy itself. Is the casual believer of a higher power crazy because of the Christian fundamentalist you saw on TV ranting about far more extreme beliefs? Are believers of the various eastern religions which are so often ignored all crazy because someone believes in the coming of the Anti-Christ, a person who doesn't even exist in their religion?

It's just strong words from someone who's equally intolerant of other beliefs as the people he's complaining about.

 

Actually the only way for a believer to verify he himself is not crazy is prove the invisible thing does exist. It is not the other way around.

If it is not crazy to believe an invisible god ordered to you to kill (as the abrahamic devotees have done throughout the ages) then surely we should let all the instruments of 6ft talking bunnies out of the asylum too?

 

Apologies if I've overlooked previous posts that you allude to. As I tried to concede, I dipped in and out of this thread when previously on this topic, and I made no effort to re-visit that section of the thread prior to my last post.

However, what I've been looking for when asking the question is for someone to open up and relate, in detailed depth, their personal thought process. I seem to remember reading certain responses and being disappointed that the detail was lacking. Perhaps that has been done but I don't remember reading it. Please don't get me wrong - I don't ask the question to expose any perceived weaknesses etc., I ask because I'm genuinely interested in life stories where people recount how they went from agnosticism or uncertainty to being a believer. Nothing's ever happened to me to make me think, "Ooohhh, I get it now", or anything of the like, so I'd like to hear how other people got to that point.

I don't assume that every believer is the product of indoctrination, I only said some, so steady on . But also, is it possible to separate 'yourself' from your upbringing?

 

Then would it not be equally crazy to believe that the invisible thing in question doesn't exist? Both sides of the coin come to a conclusion based on a preponderance of evidence rather than a solid proof.

It hardly seems fair to call either crazy, though. Common use of "crazy" would be for someone to believe in something which has indeed been proven not to exist, or disbelieve in something which does. That would be a truly irrational and unjustifiable belief.

I'm really not sure where you're going with this one, murder is murder either way and no one here has even alluded that believing in something gives you the right to go around killing people.

Perhaps it was accepted thoughout the ages, but in a modern civilized society that doesn't fly any more than 6ft talking bunnies.