News Apple launches HTML 5 demo site

I've got no axe to grind but I agree on one point - if you've created a tech demo, to be made available to anyone to look at on their own machines etc, it strikes me as sensible to restrict it to running only on the browser you've written it for/tested it on. Surely the point of the demo, for now, is to show potential ?

 

It's kind of ironic that Apple's 'open' standards only work in Safari. I tried it in Chrome and it still doesn't work. They must have embedded browser detection code and used a bunch of currently unsupported pseudo classes/methods. I guess eventually, all browsers should support it.

Problem is, the biggest browser, IE probably won't get any of these standards supported until version 400 and by then, it'll probably only half ass it like every other release anyways, forcing developers who can't be bothered making a website twice and debugging CSS/JS for hours resort to Flash.

Personally, I hate Flash. Ever tried running Flash on a Mac? Yeah, it runs alright most of the time, but it drains my battery, uses up way more CPU/memory than it should, and half the time, gives me choppy video playback. Not to mention the design atrocities Flash has produced for lazy half-assed "web designers".

Unfortunately, despite browser inconsistencies in regards to standards (and the standards Apple seems to be using in their demos aren't even completely codified yet), I have to agree with Apple's stance. Screw Flash. I wish people would just STFU about it, because not only is it slow and inefficient, it breeds bad design and costs a load of money to license.

FYI, I used to be an avid Flash user. Developed with it, drew with it, hell, I even made posters with it. I stopped when I discovered better free alternatives that were more modular and easier to work with: IE: JQuery etc.

 

scq, it's worse than that. All of the demos are also available on the Apple developer site (http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/) and the only one that doesn't work in Chrome is that VR one.
They're basically supported in the other browsers, but Apple will only let them use them on Safari.

 

We can make this totally easy for everyone....

If you don't like it, don't use Apple-products.

If there would be other manufacturers offering products as good as the ones from Apple, then nobody would give a damn about this whole Apple-topic.

Don't blame Apple for being Apple, blame the other manufacturers for not releasing similarily good products.

 

Well, I think you are quite mistaken about there being no products as good as those from Apple. Personally, I love my Android phone and would pick it over an iPhone every day.

What I'm annoyed about is that Apple have blocked people from releasing things in languages other than C++ or Objective C. Adobe wrote a flash->iphone compiler, it made native iPhone apps, no translation layer at all, simply compiled actionscript into machine code. Apple blocked it, citing that it would produce sub-standard apps.

 

Apple gets critiziced for two decades allready, as people compare it to Windows and Linux.
Apple isn't a software- or hardware-company tho, but they built systems. And a system incorporates hardware and software alike.

Now Apple makes sure, that their systems do work as intended, and therefore Apple sets their own standards for software being used on their hardware.
In return for accepting Apples policies, the user get's full warranty and support for the products.

Nobody forces you to use Apple-products, so stop blaming them for their policies, but go buy/use something else.

EDIT: Apple is not willing to guarantee for Adobes Flash, and they don't want to deal with updating their firmware every few month, when Flash is updated. And they can't even do so, as the users themselves would need to update the firmware of their iPhones and iPads. But the users would blame Apple, if the new Flash-stuff doesn't work on their older iPhone or iPad etc...
So Apple simply doesn't allow 3rd-party-stuff like Flash on their systems, as this is alot easier to maintain.

It's nothing else with the Playstation or the Xbox I might add.

 

What Apple is doing is not like telling Mercedes to use Toyota engines. It's like Mercedes telling you that you can't put a Toyota engine in your car, when it's perfectly possible from a technical standpoint.

 

I just feel its too early to just ride on the Anti-Flash bandwagon, as what Apple is trying to do, Im more for a smooth transition, developers start developing HTML5 sites, people sees these site and discover they are better than flash sites, increase in demand for html5 forces other browsers to step up their support (and iron out any problems they have with their browsers). but at the same time flash still exists along side. dunno, I just like smooth transitions, easier to manage quirks if there are in the standard.

 

I agree with this. Flash is still nowhere near critical mass, and probably won't get there for at least two years.

 

Mercedes voids your warranty and denies support, if you do so. And that's exactly what Apple does.

So what's the deal then? You can put Flash on your iPhone or iPad, if you absolutely want to, but you'll loose your warranty and support for jailbreaking your product..

 

But wait...couldnt you just simply code some harmful code in HTML5/Javascript/CSS3? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes to this as I've tested that out before back when HTML and CSS2 was introduced. I'm sorry to say but there is no such thing as a safe internet no matter what is used for content creation.

Truthfully with Adobe adding Flash Catalyst in CS5 I expect a large resurgence of flash anyways since you can use that to create basic flash content without coding. I always sucked with flash creation so I welcome Flash Catalyst since I can actually make nicer sites and graphics with flash integration.

 

What you're thinking of is JavaRuntimeEnvironment, but that's again a PlugIn that you need to install, just like Flash.
JRE and Flash can be coded to access and modify files of your PC for example, which isn't possible with HTML, CSS or Javascript.

You can't do any harmful stuff with HTML or CSS at all and Javascript doesn't offer alot options either. Additionally the stuff JavaScript offers can be blocked by the settings of your browser, like disabling cross-site-scripting for example. HTML, CSS and JavaScript are run in the sandbox of the browser and can't do anything to the rest of your PC, if you don't want to, and that's a huge difference.

 

I'm not sure about Flash, however Java applets specifically *can't* access or modify files on your PC.

They only can [modify files, etc] if they are:

* Run as an application (hence wouldn't be web-based/loaded in the web-browser)
* Digitally signed (which requires the user's permission before loading and executing)
* Run via Java web start (and even then it doesn't exactly give 'full' access)

So yeah, I'm not sure about flash, but Java applets definitely can't be used for "harmful stuff"

 

I don't know. With Javascript, I certainly remember it being really easy to crash IE6, albeit a long time ago.

for (item in document.write) { document.write(item);}



What I would say is that the prime attack route for exploiting Mac users is through Safari browser, where there are plenty of ways of using Javascript and the like in ways that allow the system to be exploited.

Charlie Miller, for example, got to the point where by having a user click one link in Safari you could take control of the system.

CSS and HTML are theoretically secure, but the ways that browsers implement them are inherently insecure, and no browser is totally secure.

 

The standards for HTML5 were not created by Apple. You Apple haters know that right?

They just support it as a functional, acceptable, power-friendly feature set, that works great with ALL mobile devices INCLUDING (but not limited to) Apple devices.

 

JavaScript != Java-Applet.

JavaScript -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript

JavaApplet -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Runtime_Environment

 

Yes, they are different, we know, and neither of us were confusing the two. They are both exploitable, but the exploits for Javascript tend to be browser-dependent due to incorrect handling of the spec which makes them in some cases more dangerous.

Actually, yes they were/are. Apple's part of the W3 Consortium, so it had a significant say as one of the world's largest tech companies in what should go into HTML5. One thing I remember it doing was making enough of a fuss to have the requirement for video codecs to be open in the <video> element removed, thus allowing it to muscle in with the proprietary H.264 codec, controlled by the MPEG-LA, of which, yet again, Apple is a member.

Oh, and btw, this news article was about some HTML5 demos Apple made, which only work correctly with Apple software due to a browser wall Apple put in place.

 

My point is that Apple does not dictate HTML5, something which the younger readers fail to realise. Trying to imply that they do dictate due to their corporate size is also an immature notion. W3C has achieved and will continue to achieve as much as they can to promote open standards.

The whole argument that Apple is trying to kill flash is a juvenile wet dream. Both HTML standards and Flash will continue side-by-side for years to come.

 

I think that you should stop trying to label people as 'younger' in order to make them seem less mature or intelligent than yourself. It's not smart, and describing something as a 'juvenile wet-dream' is a great way to make yourself look as if you're just trying to provoke someone. It's also a great way to try and bolster your argument in your own eyes, but that's something completely different and is fatally flawed in quite a few ways.

Apple is trying to kill Flash on it's mobile devices. It's dictating to it's users that they should not be using it. It's blocked Flash -> iPhone compilers and Air -> iPhone compilers which were written to allow Flash developers to use iPhone for their products, using vague reasoning. It's so vague, in fact that the US authorities are investigating with the view to launching an anti-trust lawsuit.

W3C has achieved a lot, but the point is that corporations do have a say, and can exert their influence a lot more than smaller companies. For example, do you think that the Alzheimer Research Forum Foundation contributed much to HTML5? or Gijón City Council? No! It's the large corporations that will make a large proportions of the decisions.

Yes, it's an open standard, but that doesn't mean that corporations don't have a large say in the decisions.

Yes, HTML5 and Flash will live side-by-side, but at the moment Apple is trying to promote the virtues of a specification before it is even finished and before it has reached critical mass. HTML5 support in even the most forward-leaning browsers (Chrome 6 and Opera 10.6) is pretty poor, much slower than the supposedly less efficient Flash. I know that HTML5 is the future for many things, but the advantages are being somewhat overtouted by some and it's just not ready yet.

 

I would have to defend Apple and say it's not "trying" to kill off flash for it's mobile devices, it's already succeeded in that.

In defence of the coders, it's really up to them if they choose flash or HTML5, except on Apples mobile devices of course ... Unless a court tells Apple otherwise.