Okay, on a slight diversion, reports are coming in that MI5 offered a job to one of attackers previously. So, would it be that they genuinely felt him to be no threat and merely in a good position to watch on radical Islam, or did they wish to contain him if he joined? Or did they see him as easier to manipulate than others?
@ Nexxo and Risky I think you both make good points actually. Nexxo hit the nail on the head for me in mentioning that it has more to do with foreign policy than immigration. Risky you make a good point too in that it isn't a one off, and just because the guy was an extremist doesn't necessarily mean he was mentally ill. The best and most agreeable thing I've found on this is: http://scriptonitedaily.wordpress.c...resist-having-our-enemies-constructed-for-us/ It brings together these points nicely. A small snippet: I'd recommend reading it in full though - my words can't do it justice! Even if you do disagree
I will overlook the absence of a 'please' in your request purely out of smugness. Would love to know what motive you thought I had to fabricate what I thought was an innocuous post. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime...king-victim-by-woolwich-barracks-8628011.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/m...-incident-live-coverage?mobile-redirect=false Anywho. Supposedly Adebowale was caught up in a knife attack, aged 16, before converting to Islam. Funny how the past can influence the future, eh? Before I post the link, please bear in mind that it makes another link to drugs, so if you have trouble considering the potential association between drugs and violent crime, perhaps you're best avoiding it www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-adebowale-witnessed-murder-knife?mobile-redirect=false
I got the impression that it keeps trying justify what happened in Woolwich to foreign policy. Ok lets go down there...... If these folks can't take on the political system and resort to terrorism, butchery, thuggery and plain old racism when they feel like it. Then THEY had better be prepared to reap the whirlwind of the British public, Not the BBC version i might add. Why is it that Islam is responsible for most of the terrorism in the world, Do they really hate everyone that much? My sikh and Hindu mates seem to share the same views about the "radical" muslims, "They never seem to be happy, Always on the offensive, always causing trouble amongst each other and then against everyone else when the boat gets rocked", what's with that man! Maybe it will be a religion of peace when everybody is converted by pen or by sword? Syria is interesting.....Funny old eating habits down there.... NSFW: http://www.syrianews.cc/graphic-syrian-rebel-practice-cannibalism-video/ I guess that is the fault of the UK too, no? Or the "grooming gangs" raping and abusing young British girls.....google is your friend, There is too much to list. Maybe that is the fault of UK foreign policy? Yes? no?
Who's making excuses? How is reporting what people on the scene said in the immediate aftermath making an excuse? No-one, at any point so far as I have found, has said drugs caused it. I've introduced drugs to the thread because I felt there was some relevance in the context of discussing the mental state of the attackers.
IMO, it's not immigration as such, it's the immigration of people we know to be psychotic lunatics, legal or otherwise, and then our own stupid system that prevents us deporting them in an expedient manner. Certain radical "clerics" for example. Other than that, I couldn't give two shakes of a rats ass about immigration. Dealt with plenty of immigrants who are hard working, more so than some British people I know, normal folk who are doing their best to blend into our culture, even if their beliefs (religious, on culture, whatever) don't really match ours.
did anyone else catch the article on the bbc about the how the government are trying to use this to push through the defeated snoopers bill allowing them to monitor all communications and web activity in the uk? *edit* balls, i cant seem to find it now.
I'd hardly call the "witnesses'" testimony as reliable or informed based on either quote, particularly that in the independent: Witnesses also took to Twitter to describe the dramatic events and post photographs, which quickly spread online and on television news programmes. One user, writing on the account Boyadee, said he saw two men decapitate another man in front of him as he went to a nearby shop. He suggested that the men looked like they were on drugs, waiting for the police to arrive and then going towards them with "just two machete and an old rusty lookin revolver". "I couldn't believe my eyes. That was some movie s***," he wrote. "The two black bredas run this white guy over over then hop out the car and start chopping mans head off with machete." He then described a female officer "taking out" one of the men "like Robocop". Would you really expect someone - the attacker - to appear totally calm and collected while carrying out such an appalling attack? Surely as an ex copper you'd not consider such statements as necessarily indicative of drug intake, more likely ill informed grandstanding dramatisation/bs?
That is a subjective argument. Hindus are responsible for their share of terrorism in Asia, and so are the Jews (you like Google, look it up). I could ask the same about the Protestants and Catholics in N. Ireland right now: what is it with those people? Why can't they just get along? Straw man argument. War begets war crimes. Remember Calvin Gibbs' 'Kill Team' in Afghanistan? Rogue platoon started killing civilians and collecting body parts for trophies. As for the (here frankly irrelevant) argument bout grooming gangs: perhaps White British society needs to take a long hard look at how they look after their kids. Just like places such as Thailand, who battle British paedophile sex tourism all the time, should consider how they look after theirs. But please, carry on raising arguments to support your position that Muslims are savage, hostile invaders of our society who prey on our white children etc. And then complain about extremist views, and how us invading their countries is totally irrelevant. You would if they are a psychopath, or in a state of dissociation.
I think you're missing a point made in that article. It refers to the mass killing of innocent citizens almost every day as a result of the UK and US foreign policies which go almost noticed and unquestioned, see the video and stats in the article. It goes on to say that if we can all feel shocked and disturbed about this brutal murder, can we not at least start to understand how people in these foreign countries (and therefore religions) feel about what happens when their innocent citizens die? This is terrorism on their soil. Why can't *we* feel shocked and disturbed by these murders too, that ultimately, our foreign policy is responsible for. Basic empathy. It doesn't condone what has happened in Woolwich, and nor do I - it is a horrible tragedy. It's just important to keep the bigger picture in your mind before jumping on the hate bandwagon and asking 'why do they hate us so much' and 'Islam is responsible for most of the terrorism in the world'! Seriously? To paraphrase this article: we must not abandon the quest for justice to those with hate in their hearts, but at the same time we must not allow the misrepresentation of the balance of terror in the world to deter us seeking equal justice.
So Adebowale was in a teenage gang, and saw his friend hacked to death, and was stabbed himself by a big White guy who in a drug-induced psychosis accused them of being Al-Qaida terrorists. He then underwent a personality change and converted to Islam, radicalises and hacks a big White guy to death in return. Noooo, no mental health issues involved here at all.
Quite, hence you'll notice that at no point have I suggested they are definitive accounts of what happened - my words "for what it's worth" were to imply that one should employ one's own judgement. But what position are we in to wholly dismiss them? All I wanted to do, as Nexxo et al were discussing the mental stability of those involved, was to raise the point that witnesses had referred to drugs. Is no-one able to distinguish between introducing evidence for consideration and asserting it as truth? The woman who confronted the attackers: why is no-one questioning her account? Violent incidents attract voyeurs. Does no-one find it a bit weird that a mother, on her way to meet her kids, would ask London bus passengers to look after her bag while she interrupted her journey (the one where she's going to meet her kids) to confront a couple of knife-wielding men? Sounds voyeuristic to me. I've found it very common during public order incidents that people completely unrelated to the incident come and stand right in the middle of it just to sample a taste of the drama.In the context of knives and butchery it's not the behaviour of a 'normal' person and I wouldn't automatically consider her account to be any more reliable.
First off, I have not jumped on a hate wagon, Notice my use of question marks. They were and have been killing each other for centuries, look and secular violence that exists between sunni and shia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia%E2%80%93Sunni_relations To blame the west for all their problems is a bit rash, And if it is a political situation, Go into politics and don't take it out on the British public, Unless you want the majority of the British public to turn a blind eye when the tit-for-tat violence kicks off in the street. Not like it hasn't happened before. Like I said, some will "go down that route". Mr King's quote stands true. @nexxo Catholics and protestants stopped killing each other a long. long time ago in Britain, We have moved on and now secularism exists, kind of. The Northern Ireland bloodshed was political/nationalist and still is for some. I have yet to meet Irish/Brit that hasn't moved on from those days and I know quite a few. My lad is going to have to fight for places in schools, Get treated in an overcrowded healthcare system, Be expected to participate in other right wing religious activities due to "politically correct" fueled left wing teachers. Attend (if he gets in) politically correct schools that bend in the face of religious pressure and suppress sporting competition, Then leave school "half cooked" with any real preparation as he will be bound by kid gloves, Then try to find work in an overcrowded job market, Taxed to the hilt (if he gets a job) to pay for lazy welfare spraffs, failed social system and quango non jobs. Add to that he will have to deal with political/religious racism/fascism coming from every front in the form having other peoples ideals and unqualified "do-gooder" policies rammed down his throat. And maybe even have to worry about him being radicalized by some left/right/religious lunatics. Happy days, This is exactly what I've always wanted for him Still it could be worse, we could start killing each other in the street Oh wait...
Agreed - one can't dispute the King! However - the whole crux of the article I posted earlier rests on this notion (of what he is saying), so I find it hard to understand that you agree with one thing and not the other, when they are saying the same thing. Where? No quotation marks there so forgive me for thinking it's something you actually said. Yup it is - no one is doing that. You're not getting it - maybe take a deep breath and read the article again. Not sure what you're saying here but like it or not, politics affects all walks of life. Again, suggest you try and understand the article again though.
Yes you have; you just mistake it for righteous indignation. The rest of your rant has nothing to do with the subject of debate; that is just your personal disgruntlement. It is no different than the random, illogical, unexamined hate that drives extremists to random acts of violence because they think that in some undefined way this will make people take notice of their personal butt hurt and change the world for them. EDIT: I apologise for the "How old are you" remark. That was not very helpful.
Well, they certainly have us and a lot of other people talking... I think/hope he/she's older than 15!
Drummer Lee Rigby rest in peace. http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/ Forget the misguided brainwashed errorist who did a needlessly disgusting thing to a decent guy, the law has to be doing something about this & as far as I know which is very little so far so good, they prevented EDL from escalating this, remember the real defender & remember Muslims aren't the enemy & realise EDL & the like are the same kind of hate fueled errorists who want chaos, I'm English & will stand to help anyone who isn't a needless aggressor, I like humans, I like them more when they get along, I have no need for religion & wolves hide in them quite often like any large groups but I respect there religion as long as it's mutual which I'm pretty sure it is, often more pleasant than my own lot, I mean ya know EDL Extreme deranged lunatics, I am kinda crazy but I don't identify with them at all, I'm far more awesome. If you have racist friends on facebook unplug from it rather than let it sicken you, you can't speak sense to them but you can stop them from doing something out of order if your with them, they pretty much do what elder extreme Muslims do by head fecking them with shite negativity, I ditched facebook after 2 weeks last year after recognising the type of intelligence on there, figured I'd be arguing a heck of a lot so didn't look like much fun. Do you want chaos? I don't want chaos. That's my 1 & only contribution to this thread about a grim attack with added complications.
