I stayed out of this thread just because of this (love the serious threads too).. having most members of my family in the military I have to say it's disturbing to see sympathy for that kind of thing maybe you don't like your country- even though that's who houses and feeds you.. free speech is one thing- but just like the draw mo day.. it's wrong- to say otherwise shows a lack of common sense
It seems this is a very strong and emotional subject for alot of people - including me, i just seem to have turned up 9 pages to late. The main article linked is vague at best and people have made a ton of assumptions that they can't possibly back from just that article, i.e the people burning the red bit of paper that apparently looks like a poppy are from a different country. It doesn't seem to give their reason for protesting. Hell maybe they are from a different country and are pretty pissed that we invaded it? and to them it might see like we are celebrating the fact we invaded them. Of course that isn't what the whole day is about but to some people celebrating it, it is. Infact reading from http://muslimsagainstcrusades.com/ does seem to back my reasoning there. Im not saying it is right however. As other's have mentioned the whole thought behind remembrance day seems to have gotten lost on most people and its just something you do so you don't look bad. Apparently wearing a poppy suddenly gives you the knowledge and history to fully realise the sacrifice made by soldiers. As far as im concerned remembrance day was all about not forgetting how bad war is so we don't keep having them, it seems we are pretty bad at remembrance day huh? "One of the phrases that gets tossed around is “never again.” Remembrance Day is a good time to reflect on why humanity has so obscenely failed that promise."
Having been the holder of many unpopular opinions over the years, I would fight for their freedom to make idiots of themselves. I don't agree with what they are saying, but I respect their right to say it. What of the people who protested against the Vietnam war, or those who protested against apartheid on South Africa, or protested any of the other things which were considered moral at the time, but have now are seen as mistakes? To those who say they should accept the "British" was of doing things since they moved here, I say they are. They are engaging in the democratic process, making their views heard in a peaceful manner and contributing to the public discourse. I think these guys are arseholes, but by denying them the right to exercise their freedoms we too become arseholes.
my country in particular? oh, no...your country too, oh, and every other country...so you might as well say the whole planet. So really just by being born you have to give credit to the country you happened to be born in to? huh? No, it's absolutely right. If I have the right to say something, then you have the right to say that what I'm saying is full of sh*t in whatever manner you please - That's what free speech is...otherwise it's, ummm, not free speech.
1) I wasn't there I don't know what you sufferd, shouting an opinion is fine, shouting an opinion against an orginisation is fine, shouting an opionion against some one representing that organisation is fine. Personal threats and verbal abuse is not fine. The line can be mighty fine. If they threated you personally it was wrong. 2) As is often said "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" , as remeberence day is used to commemorate the servicemen who have died in the conflicts in the middle east, it is quite understanable that people will feel that we are commerorating (or glorifying in some eyes) the invaders and (lets not be coy, in a conflict they are sent in to kill) killers. 3) Making it an incedent aboout race is wrong, there are laws about that and they should be enforced. 4) A different point of view may be "We're glorifying our soldiers who have died in them invasion of another country and killied millions" At work we were shown the current rememberence day video. There was a STRONG link to the current conflicts in the middle east. The problem is Remberence has to strong a link with the current millitary and as such any conflicts they are are in will bring out a counter view. 5) Cheap shot, I'm dyslexic. Are my views less important because I can spell things wrong? I'm not against rememberence, I wear a poppy. I was not there I don't know exactly what was said. The service men don't start the war, the polaticians do, as such service men are not to blame. But Entrenched views where you cannot see that an opposing view may rightly or wrongly have merit means a resloution is not possable. And a conflict will stay. I'm not saying anyone here is wrong. Experiences > Fellings > Opinions > emotions What makes us different means we can't always have the same opinion. THe way forward with differences of opinion is not to say the other person is dead wrong. THat will enfoce other peoples opinions and drive emotions, resulting in conflict. You don't have to agree with thier opinion, but accept what has drawn them to that state is thier experiences, which are going to be different to yours.
I don't think so. I would like to urge you to reconsider. I'm sorry you are upset by this thread. I certainly did not mean to minimise or ignore the feelings of the grieving. I understand it feels like a slap in the face. I do not condone the actions of the protesters - I simply wanted to point out that they have a right to express their views (distasteful though we may find their means), that they might have some valid concerns (even if mixed up and/or misdirected at the service people) and that they too have suffered heavy losses and may feel just as bad as we do. Please come back, Stuart! :
Sometimes, i feel the serious threads get taken a bit too far. Instead of upsetting people and arguing with them, try to keep it to a formal debate/conversation and understand they're feelings. It isn't a joking matter that people quit these forums because some members take it too far. While yes, the people who made these people quit were just trying to make a point, there is a time when you have to back down before something like this happens once more. Please guys, dont let this happen again
The page that the original link refers to was changed yesterday. The protesting bit has been played down and more coverage given to the remembrance. As soon as Armistice Day was used to make statements of support for military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq, it was drawn into a political arena where it did not belong. And attracted political protest as a result. I realise that this upsets some people who have a personal emotional investment in the day. Basically they are complaining: "Is nothing sacred?". Well, no. I too lost my father at a young age. I did the usual: I grieved, I sulked, my school grades plummeted. Then one day the school principal came to talk to me. He basically said: "What happened to your dad is tragic and all that, but this is the rest of your life at stake here. Tomorrow I expect you to come in to school and start working your socks off". I felt angry; how dare he defile the sanctity of my pain like that!? Then I realised he was right. I now realise how difficult it must have been for him to challenge me like that, but I would not be where I am if it wasn't for him. I will always owe him. Pain is not sacred. I know this every day as I work with the young widow who lost her husband to cancer; the young mother who is terminal; the man who is fighting for his life and is losing badly. If I considered their pain sacred, ineffable, impervious to challenge I would just sit there overwhelmed and powerless and lost for words. I would be like other people around them going stupid with grief, and that doesn't help them. In challenging their pain I can help them cope with it and move on. Pain is not sacred. The dead aren't sacred. Grief and remembrance aren't sacred. Western values aren't sacred, nor are Eastern values. Religion is not sacred. Nor is Mohammed, nor Jesus, nor the poppy, nor oil nor freedom of speech or even our passionately held opinions (which is why anyone is always welcome to tell me I'm full of BS). Only people's lives are sacred: those of soldiers so casually sacrificed for political expediency, those of their families and those of civilians caught up in the conflict. Life is important. Everything else is garnish. That is what Armistice Day tells us: life is sacred. Everything else is negotiable.
Jesus, how out of prop did this thread get taken? Nexxo, you're getting the blame for this one buddy I really will long for the day humanity drops it's weapons and proclaims that we are all one in the same, such events will never occur then.
Sorry, not taking the blame. Nobody is responsible for how someone else feels. Nobody can make you feel anything; it is your own decision to feel how you feel, whether taken at a conscious or subconscious level. If members feel so strongly about the opinions expressed in this thread that they feel the need to leave I can only feel bad about that (my decision) but I do not feel responsible. Because I'm not. I have no control over their thoughts, feelings or actions and neither should I have. But for what it's worth, I share your hopes.
I had a genuine dislike of the events down in London, that made me think the usual stuff (Rotten so-and-sos! Being all mean like that!) and was mortified to hear that these people, falling foul of the law with an incitement of hatred, were not all locked up. I sympathise. The older generations of my family fought in wars long gone, and I think of them today as people who stood up for what I believe in. I'm not a supporter of the Afghan/Iraq conflicts and probably never will be, but I remember the people who stood up and took notice back when the safety of the world was under threat from full-scale invasions. That, to me, is Armistice Day. I don't want to argue about that point, if that's OK - that's my opinion, doubtless different to that of many. Those of you who've seen me lurking around here for the last 18 months will know I'm mostly a calm little wallflower, playing Devil's Advocate on occasion, and rarely getting to incensed levels of anger. The Muslim protesters had every right to protest - by law, we are all allowed our freedoms. It's when those freedoms are taken too far, and start to infringe on the freedoms of others, that they stop being rights, and start being hatred. There's a world of difference between an anti-war protest, and those hateful b*st*rds (again, personal opinion). Having said that, this understanding works both ways. If we expect a show of tolerance (if not acceptance) from these people and abhor their behaviour when they take it too far, then we ourselves should be tolerant. It's a two-way street - if you expect them to be tolerant of the soldiers and keep the demonstration anti-war only, you yourself have to be tolerant of their right to protest the war. Being hateful to that extent makes you no better than them. Everyone's opinion counts for something. Which leads me to this... I'm sorry, but I won't stand for that. If you won't accept the validity of my opinion, then keep yours to yourself.
I agree with their right to protest, but I don't agree with the fact they were not only "protesting" but using it as an excuse to be racist. I agree that they have a right to remember their dead as much as we do, but they were not doing that, they purposely overstepped the line and they knew we weren't glorifying people who killed their people. They did this just to cause offense and a reaction. The thing that disgusts me more than anything is the fact that they were clearly being openly racist and going beyond what is a lawful protest (Mankz has first hand experience of this), yet nothing was done about this. The police are clearly afraid of being branded racists by stopping other very vocal racists. We have the wonders of free speech in this country but we also have acts such as the Racial and Religion Hatred Act which should mean that when people "protest" in this way they should be arrested.
"British" isnt a race; It's a nationality. Edit: I just remembered a discussion with Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens
Bang on. Matticus. this is what i wanted to say, but would of come out wrong and got me very angry, thanks for explaining this well.
Trust me when I say that every one of the PC's there that day would have happily locked them up. Unfortunately when an event like this happens the PC's on the ground take direct orders from area management and senior management; they are not allowed to pro-actively use their powers as a Police Officer unless directed by management. This is to prevent the PC's locking lots of people up and taking them off of the streets when there is a huge puplic presence that needs Policing. And for the people saying, 'the Police didn't do anything' I can also assure you that they very much did. The Police knew about the protest a while ago and have done a lot of work on the people involved. They are all very closely watched and invaluable intelligence is gained from being able to identify muslim extremists in such an open way. People need to think of the bigger picture than just scuffing them all up and taking them to a Police station, only for them to get an £80 ticket. Matticus: The Racial and Religious hatred act does not apply to what they were doing. Such threats need to be aimed at a group of people of a religious belief (or lack of). Unless they were chanting threats towards a specific group of Christian's or otherwise, they are not committing any offences under this act. The most relevant offences you can be looking at are public order offences, but again, we need to look at the bigger picture.
Not were stuart matey the BNP and EDL still are spouting thier messages of hate with the EDL footsoldiers rioting where ever they go,people such as these along with the BNP and EDL as I said earlier should all be locked up and the keys thrown away our fathers,grandfathers and maybe our mothers or grandmothers and of course now our newer family members have been and still are fighting to stop Hatred like this and the terrorist acts that go with it. The only way to stop it is for all the good law abiding NONE RACISTS among us to stand in peaceful unity against those who seek to destroy Democracy and racial harmony,regardless of our race colour creed or religious beliefs or lack there of we all bleed the same colour and enter this planet in the same we are all equal in god. nice post btw vipers and also the same to maverick spot on mav matey i have to agree 100%
How on earth can you stand in peaceful unity when you only allow in a specific type of person? Brilliant irony right there.
