What is laughable is the notion that that Scotland will just lay claim to the oil and gas fields in it's territorial waters, without any real military might to hold onto those claims. I doubt diplomacy will cut it. But who knows, it's not like other countries have resorted to military force to get their hands on oil... oh, wait..
the whole issue regarding shetland islands is even more compliacted - its been mooted they might have an interest rejoining norway as an autonomous dependency in the event of scotland independance..... which would thrown yet another spanner in the works regarding the oil. the 200nm is the exclusive economic zone the other small issue with all of the above is the actual distance between scotland and norway; between Peterhead in scotland and Vigrestad in norway its 283 miles (as the crow flies) which ofc is one reason we had the cod wars...
Are you suggesting that Norway would invade Scotland to claim its oil? Or is this the my daddy is bigger than your daddy school of thought? The remains of the UK has the boats so it gets the oil? There is precedent for Scotland allying with the French, they have more bigger boats. Maybe we could let them defend the oil for a share of the profits? Honestly to suggest that an independence vote would effectively result in war is the kind of stupid scaremongering that I hope the unionist argument avoid.
No, I'm clearly not suggesting that. However, suggesting that a country with access to oil and gas doesn't need a military force is naive.
I don't think any one has suggested an independent Scotland wouldn't have a military, I think what was mooted above was that it wouldn't have a UK style force projection military. EU/Nato membership would be reliant on a minimal forces and it is after all a good way of employing people would otherwise find paid employment difficult.
Even to sustain a tiny number of front line troops you need massive amount of support from logistics to engineers. Plus these soilders need to volunteer, from personal experience I can tell you most officers in the Royal Regalement of Scotland would choose to stay in the British Army as would many NCOs and soldiers. Then you have the naval/air force side which is on another level of complication. With much of the Russian observation aircraft coming over the north sea above Scotland, it sure as hell going to need something to make them stay back.
Independence doesnt mean 'Cut off from everywhere', you'll still be on the same island (no offence) and you'll be part of the commonwealth as well. I don't think England will let you down if something happen, lets be realist. I'm sure they can find a solution about the army.
I don't understand this cherry picking. If Scotland wants to be truly independent, it will need its own defence. If it wants to keep using the British armed forces then it will need to stay. More devolution of power makes sence, Scotland having the benefits of Independance without the hard parts is straight up unreasonable. To add to this, what happens if an independent Scotland disagrees with a British deployment?
The EU Shetland Islands Scottish Tax revenues UK Government Jobs UK Defense jobs/contracts NHS The Pound All names which will become a familiar sound to people north of the border There are too many Scots who do wish to stay part of the Union, Its going to be interesting result. Im just pissed of the rest of the UK doesn't get to vote on Union issues, The result will affect all of us. Not that Salmond cares, I do think he will get what he deserves in the end. The Scots should be worried about the rest of the UK and what they might choose to vote for once the Scottish voice in parliament is lost. Now have a think about them keywords I've posted, It's not rocket science to see what could happen. One thing is for sure, The UK will never have to put up with Labour in Parliament again, That's a plus. Oh yeah, If by chance the Scots vote for Independence, It will only last a short time while plans are finalized for them to join the EU(SSR), Politically and financially. Some independence eh! Then we rebuild Hadrian's Wall and man the turret's.
I expect what would happen is that NATO form a reciprocal agreement to keep RAF forces stationed at Lossiemouth for just that reason. I'm not sure why folk are getting hung up on the military side of things, its not like people look at Norway or Luxembourg and say they should be in a union with their neighbours they don't have much of an army. There are ultimately much larger issues to worry about than whether or not Scotland needs an full compliment of attack subs and a standing army to ward of China.
I must admit, I find it odd the torries back the union. From a political pov they would have all the power for the next 20 years till EWNI (England, Wales and NI) gets absorbed in to FEDEU and if Scotland is such a great drain on the purse strings why continue to subsidise it when you have a once in 100 year opportunity to jettison such a loss making endeavour. Any private company would jump at it... This is the number one reason I reckon this is all a waste of time and money. The UK as whole or in its parts will eventually form part of FEDEU by hook or by crook. Which brings up an interesting point, would England Wales and NI get immediate readmission to the EU? The signatory of the EU is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and NI, Great Britain would cease to exist with a dissolution of the union. It would a fairly trivial piece of legislation to amend the charters but it would need amended. Europe is run by lawyers and civil servants who love a crossed T and dotted I and the UK has made a national hobby of upsetting large parts of the EU.
Norway is a member of NATO and spend a lot of defence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Armed_Forces Switzerland is Neutral whith sustation armed forces http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland requiing conscription to military service and compulsory membership of the militia. Military spending is 7.4% of the federal budget Being a small country doesn't mean you somehow don't have to pay for defence. I'm not sure advocating compulsury military service would help Mr Salmond with all those 16 & 17 yos he want to vote on this.
That is part of the problem. The current state of affairs is that Scotland has a disproportionate military and businesses/communities which depend on that. A separate Scotland would require a minimal force and the removal of those jobs and income - possibly ruining whole communities and making some towns a dead end for jobs. It may be that a deal with the RAF could be done as with the American bases in the U.K. for the Russian presence. The Army would only be minimal, and the Navy would require only a few OPV's with helos for fishery protection, Customs and search & rescue. In fact I imagine any Scottish Air Force would consist largely of helos for search & rescue purposes and to get to the islands quickly. Any way you look at it, it's a step change from the current situation.
Norway is a very rich country by capita and can easily afford what it spends on defence; mainly due to exceptional foresight when it came to managing its oil wealth. Ireland spend a mere 0.7% on its military, Luxembourg less. You're not wrong though, national service would do nothing to sell the "dream" to the teenagers Salmond is trying to target.
I don't disagree. I have friends in Lossiemouth and Leuchars, English if it matters. But places like these have got very big on the back of military spending and alternatives would be hard to come by. From an economic point of view removing the UK military would fairly disastrous for many places. Although that is happening any way, long term these bases will be closed as the UK cuts its defence spending an concentrates on more modern threats, ultimately lossie is a relic of the cold war. Russia is as unlikely to invade as Saudi, dealers don't off their customers.
Figure for Switzerland was % of federal budget, as % of GBP it is 0.9%, but there is a buge self-defence ifrastructure build up over years and I'm not sure everyone would like the idead of every scotsman keeping a automatic rifle or machine gun in his basement - though that bit might appeal to the youth vote! However taking another neutral EU member Finland spending if 1.4-1.6% of GDP. In the long run Scotland should be able to set it's spendign at a lower level than the UK (2.4-2.6% of GDP), by free-riding on it's NATO neighbours (Britain, Norway, Iceland etc, etc).
Who arguable free ride on their big NATO cousin. Which is, in cash terms, higher than the rest summed up so self aggrandising isn't really helpful. As a percentage of GDP the UK, France and Norway are outliers in Europe most smaller countries spend around 1.5%. Again getting hung up on the little details is completely missing the point. None of these are insurmountable and the Unionist bloc better have something more persuasive than "look you'll need an army" because Salmond already has the advantage, he's selling a dream of "Freedom" not the financial reality and any dream is much stronger than reality. I'm not saying this is right or proper but it is the truth.
I believe the SNP do not want to be part of NATO. I agree completely. Although I am open to persuasion that Independence could be the best way forward I did not vote for the SNP because I wanted an independent Scotland. I voted for them because they have been reasonably effective in government and the opposition parties had nothing to offer but negativity. The political process in Scotland is suffering IMO because we have lightweight, forgettable MSP's with little style or substance and they are not providing the strong opposition you need for good government. The no campaign so far is embarrassing. David Cameron and the other Milliband saying "We are better together!" is not going to cut it. Out of interest to those who are instantly dismissing an Independent Scotland as doomed to failure why do you think that will be the case? Switzerland, Norway, Finland, Denmark and Estonia all have similar or smaller populations and are successful small nations and with the exception of Norway do not have the natural resources we do?
