In case there was actually ever any doubt as to how things are going in Afghanistan, there is a recent article in the Armed Forces Journal calling into question the gap between official reports about the progress being made, and the situation as it really is on the ground. The question isn't really, "Would you piss on a dead Afghan?" It should be, "Would you continue pissing money away on a pointless war that is still failing 10 years in?"
It is pretty obvious that the war is already lost. We have been unable to defeat the Taliban, and a scared Afghan population has to choose between supporting us, uninvited heathen intruders whose unasked for intervention has resulted in the homelessness of millions driven from their villages turned into battle zones, or supporting the Taliban: a bunch of psychopathic nutjobs, sure, but one with who they share the same socioeconomic, cultural and religious values and under who they managed to survive for a good decade already. Some are regarded as heroes anyway, for kicking out the Soviet occupiers in the 90's, who to an illiterate uneducated population looked pretty much the same as us. Life expectancy in Afghanistan was, and still is 44. Infant mortality 20%, maternal death in childbirth one in fifty. 66% is illiterate and most have no access to TV or radio. In a tribalist country where malnutrition and absence of clean water is a regular occurrence, ideological notions of democracy are the least of their worries. Most of them had never heard of Bin Laden or Al-Qaeda or even New York. We brought our fight to them. Into their meagre fields, their simple homes and their oppressed lives. We fought it out with their Feudal rulers in their living room and destroyed the furniture, broke their china and torched the place, while family members got caught in the crossfire. Then we told them it is for their own good, to better their lives. Where we managed to improve things a bit we give them false hope, because how long are we going to stay around? The Taliban are still there, ready to take over and they have long memories for everyone who seemed a bit too friendly with the enemy. And then, as the population is stuck in this dreadful ambivalence, we piss on some dead Afghans. Way to go. The war is already lost. Political denial is keeping us there.
Some of the above is not factual though Nexxo, even though you would have us believe that. Some of it is based purely on your perceptions. You cannot speak for the Afghan people as a whole, and it's arrogant, and also silly to presume that you can. Your statements, in this thread and others, have left me asking the following questions: How do you know that the majority of Afghan people did not welcome the overthrowing of the Taliban? How do you know that the Afghan people share any sentiments in any shape or form with the Taliban? How do you know that the Afghans do not feel any more secure in areas where the Taliban has been displaced? What qualifies you to make statements on how the Afghan people perceive this war? What evidence are you basing these statements on? One other point I wish to make is that considering a large swathe of Taliban (from the IED makers through to the higher echelons of the command chain) are not Afghans, how can they claim to speak for the Afghan people? The Taliban use the Afghan people to further their own agenda, they have no respect for Afghan people, their tenets, history, well-being or future. The same could be said of the forces over there now, I wouldn't try and claim otherwise. The point I'm making is that the Taliban are every bit as much feared (probably more so) than the forces over there now.
Oh, I dunno, I read the news I suppose. I read the studies. I read the articles. In order to understand the dynamic a bit, you could look at the Afghans as abused children. Who would you rather be abused by? Family or a stranger? And if you are abused long enough, how do you know that is not normal life? Especially when it is presented to you as care, guidance and discipline, in the context of a culture where authoritarian religion and parenting and feudal might-makes-right rule and oppression is the norm? So if some well-meaning stranger comes in and tells you that how you are treated is evil and wrong, and you should reject your abusers and they will help you, but their help is ineffectual and it turns out they cannot really protect you, and your abuser tells you: "Don't listen to them! They are not family; they're strangers. Why would they care about you? Only we care. Don't trust them... Or you'll be sorry...". What do you do? Who do you trust? Who do you betray? So of course the Afghans are afraid of the Taliban. Most if them don't like the Taliban one bit. But they share the same cultural background and religion, they have survived under them for two decades, as they achieved an end to the chaos of the Mujahideen era, successfully disarmed warlords and patched together most parts of Afghanistan under a unitary military, economic and political authority to generate a sense of stability that the population craved. Sure, they are psychopathically hostile towards women but nobody's listens to them anyway. The really old ones are war heroes of the Soviet occupation. The Allies on the other hand are yet another foreign occupier whose stated motives do not seem to gel that well with their behaviour. The US is perceived by the Afghan population to be a very powerful nation. So if it cannot bring peace and stability to Afghanistan in 10 years, then either the Taliban are even more powerful, or the US just doesn't care all that much. So even if you do decide to trust these strangers, how do you know they are going to stay the course and win and not just piss off quietly in 2014 and leave you to the Taliban ire? I refer you to the top of page 87 of this document. It's one hell of a dilemma. One that the social worker Western politician with rescuer fantasies never understands.
Probs not worth a new thread so I thought here was as good a place as any for this: Fairly startling figures about levels of suicide in active servicemen and veterans - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/01/us-military-suicide-epidemic-veteran
Not startling for those in the mental health services. There is also an interesting similarity in mental health problems, substance abuse, incarceration and homelessness between veterans and young people discharged from care. Draw your own conclusions...
Can I draw my conclusions with an Etch-a-sketch, so that way if the conclusions don't come out the way I want I can just shake it up and try again?
I just think two wrongs don't make a right. Regardless human being to another human being. And no I wouldn't piss on a dead person or Afghan for that matter.
Invading Afghan was not a smart move in the first place. Russia tried to route the taliban 20 years before us and failed and got sent packing. What made our goverments think they could do any better i have no idea. Taliban fight smart most of the reports that ive read and saw. KIA for us is way higher than KIA for them. IEDs, RPGs. does not take much to put out of service a vehical or a lucky shot on a helicoptor. We will never fully leave iraq or afghanistan anyone who thinks we will is nuts. Did obama not promise to leave afghan within 2-3 years of talking office. Or close down the most famous american facillity of them all guantanamo bay. Lets see we are still in Afghan and guantanamo bay is still open.
Yeah, for some odd reason the Afghans did a pretty good job fighting against the Russians. It's almost like somebody gave them some weapons and funding, and then set up a fundamentalist regime to withstand the assault. It's a good thing nobody did that, though, because it might have backfired 30-odd years later.
Yeah, good thing nobody funded fundamentalist madrassas in Afghanistan and Pakistan either, or sent them children's school books glorifying the Jihad, to ensure a next generation of freedom fighters. That sort of stuff could really come back to haunt you... It's not the first time that Britain (or Russia) messed about in Afghanistan:
In answer to the thread title; Nope. Wouldn't even cross my mind as a course of action. As an observation of the rest of the debate: Certain members here have really questionable morality, sensibility, and general ethics. Makes me a little worried to say I'm British in public.
In my family I got a member that very very high up the army ranks. All he says is are troops are doing a fantastic job. All I can think is there are troops that are the dregs off society that go to war to do just that kill and kill towel heads. A few people I know say it. I think that the Taliban don't T have a code off conduct tho. Other might be roped in. Brother hood is all thay got. But that's the point in the army your not a person your a unit. That's where the strength comes from, and the weakness
