Well, if we operate within those same premises, it should be considered self-evident that belief in a higher power is better for you. Quite the opposite of what you've stated the entire time. Though it does happen to coincide with what Nexxo was saying earlier in the thread. All told, it seems that it generally is not a negative thing to have faith. In fact, just from the scientific studies on the effects of prayer on the individual praying it's got a hell of a lot of benefits. As Nexxo said, it seems to confer a lot of evolutionary advantage. If it's that good for us, why change? Nobody's any happier for it.
No.It should be self evident that things such as relaxing, taking a time out, "discussing"/verbalilising problems, meditating are good for you. All things which do not involve any supernatural beings (even if those things are done through prayer) If you want to make leaps of logic perhaps you should try this instead Again to meditate or any equivalent doesn't require faith or god or anything just a bit of peace and quiet. Who wouldn't benefit from that. Personally I do see religion as a negative thing but ultimately I don't really care what others believe. I'm not out to deconvert anyone. Unless of course it spills over into my own life and freedoms. I can't go to the pub on good friday as one simple example. We also have the most insane anti-blasphemy laws which I think are a stand against free speech.
Having faith isn't necessarily a negative thing, it's what you do or don't do in the name of it that creates problems... Faith is inherently neither good nor bad. What faith often drives people to do, however, can indeed be bad. Having faith means you believe something without question or evidence.
Il put this here as someone mentioned earlier that praying for someone helps them and that there was a study done. Heres the results for the biggest study done on prayer http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567 TLDR version: study found prayer did nothing for the recovery of patients and actually caused more complications for patients while in surgery. Cancer remission happens, however saying we don't know how therefor its god is not proof or evidence for your god. I tried looking up earlier claims about Jesus and came up empty, as far as i can tell the debate about his very existence is still up in the air.
Indeed god of the gaps is a common approach to infer the workings of god. When we as a species knew very little there was a very large gap for god to fill. As time goes forward and our knowledge increases those gaps get smaller and smaller. Eventually there will be no more gaps to put him in. Putting god in place of a true search for knowledge and understanding is essentially tantamount to taking fry's approach to understanding the world. Which is a shame. Edit: Coincidentally I was looking for a DeGrasse video on a subject unrelated to this thread and stumbled on this one where he details the god of the gaps
Did you miss the part in my post where I quoted Mark 16 where the Bible says, that God will confirm the Word (The Gospel being preached) with signs following (Evidence that it is true)? Even Jesus said to the people if you don't believe what I preach at least believe the works that I do . The apostle Paul in a letter to the Corinthians said "And my speech, and my preaching was not with enticing words of mans wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit, and of power:" - once again signs confirming the word. The key here is as Kayin said "What evidence exists is ambiguous" - which is true in that no matter what sign or wonder God does, we can choose to believe or not believe. You can witness someone raise from the dead and walk away saying they weren't really dead. You can witness a leg grow back and still doubt saying it was a trick of some sort that someone will eventually figure out. God has given His Word and the signs and workings confirming His Word. He's not going to force anyone to believe in Him, He wants you to serve Him not because He forces you but of your own volition. At the end of it all no one is going to be able to say to God, I could not believe in You. We can believe anything we choose, most people don't believe because for as far as I know, some are totally blinded and others have had the blinders removed for short periods of time and chose not to believe and thus go back into darkness. And by reading the abstract and some of the full report I can tell the way they carried out this study is mostly unbiblical so of course it didn't work. Just forwarding the names of some to a prayer group, whether not they believe in God is not enough get them healed. Hilarious. If someone is praying to be healed, how does God interfere with their free will when He heals them? Isn't it healing that they want?
I believe that theshadow2001's point about free will is that (according to his understanding of free will) humans have the freedom to make our own decisions in life. In other words, we have the freedom to act as we do, for better or worse, and God will not force us in a particular direction. theshadow2001 argues that if we pray for healing, and God provides it, then he's actively guiding us. I'm not sure if that's a violation of free will; we're still free to go on a sin binge after we're healed. I might argue that a miraculous healing from prayer is more a risk of God revealing himself, and therefore breaking the metaphysical barrier and removing the very need for faith. After all, if it is scientifically proven that it was God's prayer that healed you, then worshiping him isn't so much a matter of faith anymore. People will become too reliant on God because they now have proof of his existence, and that opens a whole box of problems.
Sorry but are you saying words in a book now constitute evidence ? Please do point me to the link that shows independent evidence of someone who "raise from the dead and walk away" or and independent witness to a leg growing back, and we are not talking circumstantial evidence here. So god wants people to "serve Him", being a slave to someone or something doesn't appeal to me thanks. So you are saying that if its not in accord with or sanctioned by biblical teaching, that it makes it invalid ? what kind of report or study says you can only do it the way we tell you to ?
But does proof not obviate the need for faith? And now you are saying that proof does not matter anyway? Well, as supermonkey says: Knowing obviates faith. There is no free will because there is no choice to believe; you already know. People will obey God because they want His favour, not His punishment, and they stop thinking about why it was that God wanted them to live in a certain way; what is the philosophical meaning or truth of it. As I said, with faith there are no neon signs, no secret clues, no doctrine of signatures. You believe because it is meaningful to believe; because the values and principles that God and/or Jesus stand for resonate with you. You believe because it makes sense to. You need no 'evidence' to prove to you that it is the 'right' thing to believe. You just understand that it is a good thing to believe. You appear to believe that proof is an essential part of substantiating your faith: you need to see the proof that you are "right" (and lo, as happens with human cognition we selectively interpret our observations to confirm our a priori beliefs you see the proof as has been promised you). I argue that faith is not about proof. It is about feeling in your soul that what you believe is a good thing (not the "right" thing!) to believe. I guess we have different concepts of faith in that way.
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Sort of a backhand there that statement. Obviously it is a small quote taken in context of the above though and I believe Jesus wasn't much into prejudice.
I think super monkey puts it quite well. I would add that there is also a whole causality knock on too. If god heals someone, that someone will go on to interact with different people in a different way and as a result affect the lives of both the person that was healed and those with whom that person has interacted. The manner in which those people and their lives are affected (for better or worse) would not have happened if god did not intervene. But even on a more basic level the whole free will thing just seems like a general non interference policy for god. Healing people is not part of a non interference policy. I was actually going to bring this story up myself as it is relevant and you have put it quite well. Its a fantastic example of a religion favouring those who ask no questions, who seek no evidence and just believe. The favouring of blind ignorance over investigation and the seeking of truth.
Nope, I used that to show that there was evidence that accompanied the preaching of the gospel in the Bible, it wasn't just a belief with nothing behind it. I can't, those are testimonies I've heard from Ministers of the Gospel. And like I said earlier why don't you guys take to time to look for stuff yourself? I put a link with other testimonies that have videos that accompany them in an earlier post. And the same minster who owns that website has testified that his son rose from the dead after about 5 hours, his body was already black. Being a slave to someone is fine if everything they tell you to do is always for your good and that of others. It's not so much that He wants you to be His slave (in the modern usage of the word) He desires fellowship with you - as I've explained in an earlier post. The same way a parent would want their child to obey their every word because when they tell them to not touch the hot stove, they know why they're giving that instruction. It's funny you say you don't want to be a slave to someone or something, but I'm sure if you had kids it would appeal to you if they followed your every serious and important command without wavering. Yes it's invalid. For example, you give me a car to test drive, but I decide I want to go flying then boating in this car that was designed to drive on the road. So I go find a cliff to drive off so I can fly into a lake below. I then proceed to drive off the cliff and sink to the bottom of the lake. By your logic I'd be justified returning angrily to your dealership and saying your car doesn't work, even though I didn't use it in the way it was designed to be used. Nope, proof after faith to prove that what believe is true. It doesn't get rid of the need for faith, in fact proof strengthens faith. For example if you had a tax bill for £10,000 and someone said to you they will pay it off month by month. Having faith that they would do what they promised, would be to confidently expect them to do it. Now if they start paying the bill by sending you £1000 each month, then every month you would become more convinced they will completely pay off the bill. Your faith is strengthened by evidence, the need for it is not nullified, since if you're not confidently expecting them to do it, you are no longer in faith. Nope my point is no one can say they can't believe in God when faced with His Word and signs and miracles that confirm what is taught therein, it is a conscious choice to not believe. Nexxo the greek: We do not stop thinking about why God tells us to live in certain ways. For example, monogamous marriage, would there be as much a spread of sexual diseases, single parenthood, teenage pregnancy, divorces that lead to troubled children etc if that alone was ideally followed? I can look at the results of the world around me and it confirms why God would instruct us to live in that certain way. I've already stated you're completely off here on why I believe and in regards to evidence, also there's a big difference between beliefs that resonate with you and the inward witness of the Holy Spirit. Erm that is the entire point? I fail to see how someone praying to be healed and God answering their prayers is against their free will. If someone doesn't want to be healed and God was to heal them, then they can say God interfered with their free will to be sick and die young. If God won't force someone to get saved and escape eternal separation from Him, he most certainly won't force healing on you. Healing is the goodness of God being manifest and as I've said before. God would like people to repent and be reconciled to Him, healing is just one of the ways he draws people to Himself. So someone being healed and going out and telling the world of the goodness of God is the entire point, yet all you seem to see it as is a violation free will, which isn't even the real issue or an issue in this case. Actively guiding is different from forcing. Imagine a shepherd walking in front and his sheep following vs. a man behind you with a gun to your head saying go this way. Or if we're to stick with animals, a cowboy behind his herd driving them in a certain direction. Before His death Jesus told His disciples multiple times that He would raise from the dead. So when Thomas doubted the words of those saying they've seen angels and Jesus, He was refusing something that he was already told would happen. If Jesus never told His disciples about the events surrounding His death, burial and resurrection, they would be justified in not believing anyone who said he rose from the dead. You guys speak with such confidence about things you simply don't understand and at the core if it all, the only arguement that really seems to be here is; I don't like God, He offends me.
So let me get this right because a book tells people something happened that we should believe everything else the books says. By that premiss we should believe in the tooth fairy, after all books tell us the tooth fairy visited little johnny and replaced his tooth with money. So if i made a public declaration that i can fly should we just expect the world to believe me ? Or should my ability to fly be tested in some way other than people just taking my word for it ? Lack of personal freedom does not sound like something anyone would welcome even if its for my own good or the good of others. As for the child obeying my every word.... Children depend on their parents to protect and teach them about the world around them, its part of growing up. But as with any infant there comes a time when they have to take what you have taught them and forge their own path in life. It would seem you are saying you are happy to always be in a child like state, not wanting any personal freedom to make you own decisions or mistakes. The thing is we are not talking about the uses a particular machine should be put to, we are talking about a report or study.
So you are saying that you believe in God, but only as long as He pays up. And I thought I was a cynic. You cannot choose not to believe in the existence of something what you know for a fact exists. But how many people will live that monogamous life because they really believe that makes sense, when they know God is up there judging their behaviour? Most people don't operate beyond Kohlberg's stage of 3-4: social (or in this case, God's) approval/disapproval matters more than whether the act is inherently moral or good. I gather that. We disagree on what faith means. Such an act would reveal God to exist. People would not have faith anymore; they would know. People will start to behave in certain ways (whether they consciously choose to or not --the knowledge of being observed changes your actions even if you think it doesn't; it's a common problem in psychological research) because they know God exists, not because they believe that they should behave that way for inherent logical or moral reasons. The principle of free will and morality is that we should be our own guide. We're supposed to be human adults, not children, nor sheep. I think people are saying: I don't like religion, it offends me. I have no opinion on God since they think He doesn't exist. My problem is this: Jesus makes a lot of sense. He had good moral values and a good message. His values resonate with mine. That's all I need to pay attention to what he was saying. You're seeming to suggest that none of that would matter if he didn't prove he was the son of God by performing some miracles along the way. Yeah, his stuff about loving each other and doing onto your neighbour as you would have done on to you, and turning the other cheek and suffering the children and not judging people is all nice and good, but he better raise a few dead people, turn water into wine and come back from the dead, before we take him seriously. Wait, what? You appear to want the magic tricks, not the sermon. You want the miracles, not the wisdom. You need those 1000 dollar down-payments. It's not how spirituality and philosophy work. It's not accountancy.
Oh come on man, you keep completely missing the point. Go read the context of that original post and what it was in response to. Well whoop de doo, for someone to die and be in a hospital morgue don't you think they're would be record, witnesses that can be checked out? If you won't take his word for it go investigate. Here lots of testimonies by a well known evangelist. Just his word again I guess, so you can ignore it. How does "Of your own volition" say you lack personal freedom? And that is exactly what God is doing, protecting us by showing us how to live. Christians have personal freedom to do whatever they want, how else would ministers who've been in the ministry fall by teaching error etc? God shows us the way to walk he doesn't make us walk down the road. If you're happy to go your own way God will let you[\B], why don't you just get this??? It's an analogy. Let me try again, If there is a study trying to assess the effectiveness of a newly developed medicine that should be taken on an empty stomach, but all the subjects in the test take the medicine just after a large lunch. The medicine won't work; the scientists would report their findings, which would be that the medicine is ineffective. Likewise this study applied prayer wrongly and said it doesn't work. Well God says He doesn’t lie, so if He doesn't do what He says, why should I believe in Him? When it comes to spiritual things you can blind your mind to their reality. Take how the Israelites continually turned from God despite all His works for them; remember I said it's a matter of believing in your heart? The same way you can turn love into hate you can turn that belief in the unbelief by continually hardening your heart to the point of denying the existence of God. In the book of Jude: The married atheists, agnostics, tribes around the planet that don't believe in the Christian God, yet marry. As Christians we believe all of God's actions and instructions are inherently morally good. Before you go hunting through the OT for quotes of slaughter, I can't explain a lot of that, but the more I've learnt through teaching I can see why God instructed certain events, also like I said before no one deserves to be saved on the basis that we've all sinned. So while I don't see all the reasons behind His actions, I'm still staying on God's side in the matter. They would know God exists in that moment, but what happens after a while when doubts start to come, when someone says evolution is how we got here and has hundreds of pseudo-scientific articles ( ) to back it up? There have been cases of people who've been healed from conditions, such as being wheelchair bound for years, only to lose their healing and doubt the existence of God all together despite at one time being sure they were healed. God expects us to be adults that choose to follow Him. On the topic of morality, we've tried to be our own moral guide, from the 1900's biblical morality has been replaced, is society better off today because of it? Nope I'm not, Jesus Himself said, they didn't believe His words, at least believe His works. Like I quoted from the Bible showing before: in the culture Jesus lived, people believed in God, and if you come with big talk, they expected some signs to confirm what you preach. The prophets of old always had signs or confirmation of their prophecies, now to come and say you're the son of God and not just a prophet and not have any signs; no one would give you the time of day. I want them both. Nexxo you don't even believe in the existence of the spiritual realm, how do you know it's not how spirituality works? You're only interested in the wisdom because it fits into your scientific framework of life, the miracles, not so much. I'm not the one saying God should do signs and wonders, God Himself said HE WOULD, if God says He never lies and then says He would do something, would it be wrong for me to expect it of Him?
What you mean when you said... So these signs, written about in a book, constitute proof that the words in the book are true. TBH i don't feel the need to hire a private investigator to check hospital records and interview witnesses just to prove that some person, who has made it his job to relay information about a particular set of beliefs to others. happens to say, hey everyone if you believe in the same things as me look what can happen. Sorry but where did "Of your own volition" come into this, one minute you where saying god wants us to be slaves, the next you said, well not slaves think of it more as he wants to be your friend, and now you are saying "Of your own volition" Protecting someone and showing them how to live is all well and good, but there comes a time when you have to cut the apron strings and let them make a life for them selves. And FYI try not to contradict your self in the same sentence, If "Christians have personal freedom to do whatever they want" Then why would a "ministry fall by teaching error etc?" either there is or isn't freedom, which is it ? So your are saying there is a "correct" way to pray now ?
Yup. You are effectively saying that the ones who don't believe, don't just blindly follow, they understand. why marriage is a good thing. Can't be much of a faith if it has to keep being backed up by down-payments of proof. Actually, when you look objectively at human history over the last millennia, society as a whole has gradually become better, not worse. There are blips and of course bad things still happen, but on the whole today is actually the best, safest and most civilised time to be alive. Although to be fair this has nothing to with religion or atheism, but with scientific progress and the resulting quality of life. People are nicer to each other when their circumstances are better. Religion does not change anything, sorry. People were good and evil before, and they are good and evil now. The driving force behind human betterment is basically good plumbing, not religion. That's a pity, because I just find his philosophy compelling. The miracles ascribed to him are meaningless to me. But surely the massage should be able to stand on its own merit? Don't I? And isn't that just another way of saying that I don't know what I'm talking about? No, people who claimed to be speaking for Him said He would. And surely, in the end it is about the wisdom, isn't it? Faith, hope and love: Philosophy, positivity, compassion.
I'm married. It has nothing to do with religion, or fictitious deities. I was not married in a church, and religion had nothing to do with the ceremony. I married as a sign of commitment to my wife, and for legal and financial benefit. My marriage has precisely jack **** to do with religion.
