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Europe's youth take complex view of US

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Cthippo, 14 Aug 2007.

  1. Ramble

    Ramble Ginger Nut

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    Growing your own food isn't environmentally friendly as some would lead you to believe.
     
  2. CardJoe

    CardJoe Freelance Journalist

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    I don't see how it can hurt if you're doing without chemicals and fertiliser. Scraps and leftovers for compost + patience = home made infused jams, olive oil, beers, ciders, wine, mead, 15 types of vegetables and more apples than you can shake a stick at. CHEESECAKE! :D
     
  3. SPQQKY

    SPQQKY Evil Modder

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    It's blatant stupidity that believes we are there just to take their oil. We are not there to just steal oil. And the media is a huge part of the problem. There is no sensationalism in simplicity. They are only driven to show the 'horrors' of war and make their money by showing the worst case scenario.
    I suppose everyone would be happy if we did nothing and let these rogue states fund terrorists so they can continue to organize vicious attacks upon our people. It was funding from these people that allowed the horror of 9/11 to be realized. It was our lack of hate and distrust of other countries and people that allowed it to happen. Our reason for going there was just (Iraq was after all refusing to allow UN inspections and falsifying documents, literally plagiarizing previous documents), our reason to stay is questionable at best. While it seems many Europeans don't want us there, the Iraqi people were actually happy we are there, hoping for a democratic nation. This feeling is still strong, though the feeling that the tactics and results of success are fading fast as it seems we are fighting a losing battle at this point.
    Sorry if I seem harsh, but I just get a bit steamed about this kind of thing. How dare the French say a goddamn thing? I believe we have a really big green lady given to us by them for basically keeping them from a serious ass whooping, now they wanna give us crap? And let's not forget the British Empire, a very long history of walking in to other countries to take over and do as they see fit. It would take hundreds of pages to go through the violent past of the British Empire. I'm pretty sure not too long ago, as far as history is concerned, the British wanted to rule our land and killed thousands of Americans in order to do so, yet after we got done with the butt kicking, we forgave them and ended up pretty much saving Europe from being overrun by the Nazi's. All this while we were busy saving our own asses from the Japanese. And after we put a serious ass whooping on them, we said, 'hey, we're sorry we had to do that, but you had it coming. Tell you what.....we'll help rebuild your country'. Our country has a huge deficit because we give a lot of aid to other countries. We do a lot more than what the media would like to fluff.
    So yeah, there's a lot of bad crap going on, but we've also done a lot of really good stuff. And there is some serious greed going on here, but there are a lot of businesses abroad that rely on some of that greed. So despite our downfalls, if America were to crumble, so would a lot of other nations. Let's not forget who Americans are and where we came from. We are British, we are English, Irish, Scottish, Polish, Italian, Greek, German, French, Japanese, Chinese, Spanish, Norwegian, Swedish, Indian, etc., etc., etc.. My mother is 100% German (should I hate her for what the Nazi's did?), My Fathers family came here from Italy in the early 1900's. They were heavily involved in the mafia. My great grandfather and grandfather were both murdered because of this. I didn't even get to meet my grandfather, my dad was only 15 when he was murdered. Do I think this is cool? No. Just because Hollywood glorifies the Italian mafia in movies like the Godfather and Goodfellas, doesn't mean we all think it's cool. Most of what other countries see about the US is through movies. A movie would be boring if it were just about the average working class individual, doing his/her job the best we can to provide for our family.
    We are a young country, we'll still make some mistakes. Like I said, I can point out a heck of a lot more atrocities from all the other countries in comparison to ours.
    I don't hate anyone. I have no animosity towards any country. How could I? To do that would be to hate myself. If I look at all my relatives and my family tree, I have German, Italian, French, English, Irish blood. Do I get pissed sometimes, sure, I get pissed at my friends and family sometimes for some of the things they do, but I don't hate and I don't hold a grudge either. When someone says they hate me just because I was born in America, I get pissed.
    So maybe things aren't the greatest at this point, maybe we have many mistakes to correct, but we do correct them. It's a big country and like I said, the youngest in the world, so we still have several lumps to iron out, but give us a break, it takes time.
    @ woof82, sorry you feel that way. It's hard for some of us to pick someone up, only to get spit in the face for our efforts. As pointed out, we've done a lot of good and not so good. I can say this for every country in the world though.
    I took three cans to the curb this morning, one for regular waste, one for yard waste and one for recycle. To say we are environmental trashers is garbage (no pun intended). We are pioneers in alternate energy. We have the most elaborate public transportation systems at work here in the US. In my state alone we have the Metra and the L in Chicago. We are building more and more wind energy plants, adopting more hybrid vehicles to keep fuel consumption down, using more Ethanol in our fuels. Chicago has the only hydro fueled buses in the country right now who's only waste byproduct is pure water. Chicago's water treatment facility is the best in the world, cleaner than most bottled water and it is free to it's residents.
    Sadly though, we are so big that we also have some of the largest waste facilities and garbage dumps around. But we are also coming up with ways to turn that into clean fuel.
    I guess we could all go on and on about the good and the bad about the US and all the other countries in the world, my biggest problem is when someone says they hate Americans just because we ARE Americans. Hate is a powerful word and to me this kind of attitude is bread by stupidity, just as bad as being a racist.
     
  4. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    It's blatant stupidity that believes we're not. There are about twelve reasons for going to war in Iraq, and oil features prominently in the top three.
    ...and that would be the other nine reasons.
    You mean war has a best case scenario? Yeah, I must admit that war lost some popularity since Vietnam, when technology enabled bringing the harsh reality into the living room.
    There are more terrorists in Iraq now than there ever were under Saddam --he was never involved with any terrorists. 9/11 was courtesy of people who were originally funded by the US, and it could happen because the CIA was too focussed on finding excuses to attack Iraq to pay attention to multiple advanced warnings from the intelligence community that Osama was up to something... look, I'm tired of arguing this yet again. Do you actually read any history?
    Wrong again on all counts. And several official polls have shown that the Iraq government wants the Allies to leave, and the Iraqi population wants the Allies to leave. So why are we still there?
    I was wondering when WWII would come up again... What gets me steamed up is that you appear to have absolutely, positively not a clue about what you are talking about. I'm sorry, but you really don't. I feel like I should just keep all my posts on this topic on file somewhere, so I can just copy-and-paste them in as appropriate. I mean, how often have we discussed this? Yet here you come again, waving the same old cliche propaganda BS.
    Seems only fair, as you killed all the Native Americans first in order to take it... this country you're so proud of, that fine nation is stolen property.
    Again, history lesson. The US did not get involved until Pearl Harbor, two years into the war. And since the Japanese were aligned with the Germans, the US had no choice to get involved there, too.
    Yeah, what did the Marshall Plan ever do for you, right? Apart from creating a huge block of Allies right next door to the big bad USSR, stopping the spread of the Communist sphere of influence and creating a favourable market without tariff barriers for the US. And let's forget the contributions of the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration altogether.
    No you can't --we did that tally in another thread recently. Over the last 200 years the US is responsible for more bad crap than most other countries. Again, get thee to Wikipedia, and find a list of all military actions the US has been involved in. Then find out why.
    No you don't; you compound them. South America, the Middle East, Haiti, Cuba, the Phillipines, Africa and Asia: riddled with political mistakes that are still biting the US in the ass today. And the response generally is to fix these problems by repeating the same mistakes. Think Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel vs. Palestine and Lebanon. I mean, go read some history FFS. Use Google. Use Wikipedia. Go to a library, but read something other than the propaganda bullcrap that your governement is feeding you. Please.
     
    Last edited: 14 Aug 2007
  5. CardJoe

    CardJoe Freelance Journalist

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    Like I said, this is a general view I hold of Americans. I congratulate you for doing your bit for the environment, honestly. But America as a whole isn't and governmental policy in the US isn't big on the issue - one just needs to look at Kyoto summits etc and Bushs reaction there to see that.

    I realise that America is making moves into these areas now, slowly, but on an international level its way behind and is generally regarded across the globe as too little, too late. To look at the numbers of one of the most successfull economies and the amount it is putting in to environmental causes compared to other sectors, like oil sources and military, it becomes clear that its only a token amount being spent on green issues.

    I did mis-speak before though - it isn't America I dislike, or Americans as a whole. Its the culture over there which sees denial of global warming getting just as much airtime as appeals on the issue, but often with more people believing it as its a more comfortable and easy position to take. I like America as a place. I like American people (like Brett and yourself). But I dislike this aspect of American culture and I dislike this aspect of foreign policy.

    Its an opinion, one which I put across based on personal feeling and information in a calm and orderly manner, so while I am sorry if I offended you (this honestly was not my intent and I do apologise) I feel I can be entitled to my views on this issue without being called a racist. Especially as this view has not spawned anything criminal, etc.
     
  6. E.E.L. Ambiense

    E.E.L. Ambiense Acrylic Heretic

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    That's a bit of a blanket statement, I think. Not all of us are anti-environment. It's not that easy to place everyone in one little pile. I for one am VERY environmentally conscious. I love trees. I recycle. I sort my trash. Everything I can do to lessen the damage of the morons we have around here short of cracking open the trailers for the worthless prize inside. Hell, at work I was able to ween the superiors off the harmful chemicals they always used to recyclable stuff that is environmentally-safe AND saved them money by doing so.

    I hate this so-called administration, and unfortunately he was voted in (of course, that's also debatable), but not everyone is backing him. Last I checked, his approval ratings were lowest yet. I back the troops in this manufactured war, because they are there and many of them do not want to be. But it is their job. The difference between my job and theirs is that I can quit mine and find another. If they try to quit theirs, they go to jail and their careers are over, militarily speaking.

    But again, this is not all boiled down to this or that. It's more complex. "America isn't Bush", as was quoted before. That's true. Very true. And if it were in any way, it won't be for much longer. Here's hoping for a better next Pres. :sigh:
     
  7. Bungle

    Bungle Rainbow Warrior

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    LOL Nexxo you should really learn to bookmark your previous posts mate. Don't you find you get dizzy going around the same debate time and time again.:lol:
     
  8. E.E.L. Ambiense

    E.E.L. Ambiense Acrylic Heretic

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    Oops, must have been typing our responses at the same time. lol.

    Yes, global warming doesn't apparently exist according to this government. Which is a travesty, to put it simply. And ridiculous. Of course it exists. And we, as a country, are partly to blame. And as a humble American, I offer a heart-felt apology on the part of the morons in charge. I'm truly sorry! :duh:
     
  9. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    Well, I agree with pretty much everything you said in your post, but I wanted to address the bit I quoted above. I'm tired of constantly being blamed for the rape of the Native Americans. To state that it was America that "stole" the country from them isn't very genuine.

    European explorers had been robbing the natives in North and South America (and paying them with disease) long before the US was even an idea. It was the European settlers that first began taking the country. We continued the trend.

    Even then, while European - and later, American - settlers were claiming land that arguably belonged to the native people, the native people had done a fair job of warring with each other for centuries. There wasn't simply one grand native people of the Americas. The two continents have numerous tribes that have their own history of fighting and conquering before the first Europeans ever set foot on Carribbean soil. Even after the US was formed, we fought with Mexico, France, Britain, and other assorted countries to claim real estate that, by your argument, never belonged to any of the aforementioned parties.

    To be clear, I agree that the US committed atrocities in its (mis)treatment of the native people. I understand this and I know the US government has its share of the blame. I just think it's wrong to make the implication that the US acted alone. I see that argument come up every now and then, but it's always America, and America alone, that gets called out.

    -monkey
     
  10. E.E.L. Ambiense

    E.E.L. Ambiense Acrylic Heretic

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    It's because we're the ones holding the hot potato currently.
     
  11. cpemma

    cpemma Ecky thump

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    You did "just let Japan and Germany crush the world", actually, or at least great areas of it. America entered WW2 at the end of 1941 when Japan and Germany declared war on you, I think you'll find. Had you joined in at the start, against a dictator who made Saddam Hussein look like Santa Claus, the death and destruction would have been greatly reduced.
     
  12. tekcajder

    tekcajder What's a Dremel?

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    me too.
     
  13. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Trust me, I've really seriously thought about it... :sigh:

    I'm sorry, but SPQQKY opened that can of worms, so I just spooned it out on his plate. He was complaining about how the Brits tried to take the Americans' land; well, the Americans effectively took it from the Natives first.

    All that crap about: "Yeah, but the natives fought amongst each other too" or "they weren't really one nation/people" doesn't wash with me any more than: "But they didn't do anything with it (e.g. farming)". It was their land. Not "arguably" either; it plainly was. Those tribes were there first. And regardless of how many other countries joined in the thievery, you are there now. In the end, you're caught holding the stolen goods.

    Don't get me wrong; it is all bygones and I do not hold present day Americans responsible for what happened to the Natives than I hold myself responsible for the slavery committed by my Dutch ancestors (would be tricky anyway, because the slaves are my ancestors as well). But SPQQKY dug up the past, so I followed it to its logical end. A certain amount of knowledge and modesty about one's background history is always appropriate.
     
  14. E.E.L. Ambiense

    E.E.L. Ambiense Acrylic Heretic

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    Glad you addressed that, Nexxo. I was going to bring up that logic; i.e. holding me, as a white blond-haired blue-eyed southern American, responsible for the slavery that may or may not have been committed by my ancestors. That's ridiculous. Is it abhorrent that it happened in the first place? Of course. But it's past. And I will not be held responsible for something that may have happened back then by said ancestors, now. Besides, the people that were effected directly by it, and those that caused it, are no longer here. So the argument's moot, AFAIAC.
     
  15. SPQQKY

    SPQQKY Evil Modder

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    That's because we were in the Great Depression. Another bomble of the government and big business. We really had no resources and while a few were prospering, the majority of the country was starving. It was only out of absolute necessity after Pearl Harbor that we joined. Remember, Germany had not declared war on us. The population at the time felt getting involved in WWI was a mistake and wanted nothing to do with another war that had yet affected them directly. And we had only just begun to come out of the depression by selling weapons to Britain.
    And we were involved before Pearl Harbor, US troops and ships escorted British and French war ships prior to Pearl Harbor. But direct involvement couldn't be issued by the government due to our struggling majority still not wanting to get involved.
    And I agree with supermonkey, as it stands, it was the settlers which were European and mostly English that did the slaughtering. Not all the native Indians were kind and peaceful either, do you think scalping was something they started just for the settlers? Not to say invading their land was right, but when you say Americans did this, it really wasn't Americans as you can think of them today, it was Europeans.
    Didn't Britain rule Hong Kong for like 150 years? That wasn't too long ago. Didn't Britain take control over South Africa and slaughter a lot of natives? I do recall the Anglo-Zulu wars. Didn't they first have to battle the Portuguese in order to take control for trade profits. Didn't Britain have military rule in Singapore, Ireland, Scotland? So I don't like to pointed out as the bully, when our short history doesn't compare. Do you think we are the only ones who's government does something wrong? So maybe I did bring up the past and again in my defense I do so.
    I never said that, don't put words in my mouth. My point was the media likes to take the most horrible thing they can find and say 'look what those troops are doing' as if to make them ALL look like blood thirsty monsters or something, when in fact the majority are young and naive troops doing what the honestly feel is something good for their country.
    Like I said and I will repeat, I HATE NO ONE! I am not here to make enemies either, I joined this forum because I think it is a great community, there are folks here from around the entire globe. It was CardJoe's statement about not liking Americans that got me fueled and perhaps in my haze I coughed out some silly and vague remarks. I understand he reiterated and that is fine.
     
    Last edited: 14 Aug 2007
  16. Hugo.B

    Hugo.B What's a Dremel?

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    [offtopic] Note to those that feel compelled to post an Epistle to Nexxo:
    Please insert a space or two between paragraphs, it makes it indescribably easier to read.
    It has a universal application, doesn't just apply to SPQQY [/offtopic]
     
  17. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Those who forget the past however, are forced to relive it. Nobody can be blamed for what distant ancestors did, but they can be blamed for repeating the same mistakes out of ignorance.
    While the US was technically neutral up to Pearl Harbor, they were already providing substantial aid to the Allied side: the British were being provided with arms and supplies on favourable terms, and no such supplies were being sent to the Axis. Convoys across the Atlantic were being escorted by US warships for the Western part of the journey to protect these goods. The Germans, not being too picky about who they attacked, also torpedoed three US civilian vessels. Nevertheless Rooseveldt had some difficulty convincing Congress to join the party until Pearl Harbor. A few days later Germany and Italy declared war on the US too. No problem with that, but the US didn't exactly jump to the defense of the free world, as is often suggested.

    By that reasoning then, it was British Europeans who killed assorted European settlers when they wanted to go independent. Nothing to do with aggression against America, which, as you say, didn't quite exist as we know it today. ;)
    Britain (and various other Western nations) are not going around claiming the moral high ground today.

    To re-iterate In the last 200 years the US has been involved in more dodgy conflicts and started more wars than any other nation. When I mentioned this, Hells_Bliss' response was:
    I replied:
    Now I know that no country is saintly, but only the US government keeps going on about how morally righteous they are. And that irks me.

    This is an important point. There were some faked pictures doing the rounds of US troops supposedly raping Iraqi women. This was around roughly the same time that very real pictures came out showing the tortures in Abu Ghrab. There also has been that little incident in which a platoon gang-raped a 14-year old girl while they slaughtered her family. Now these are isolated incidents, you may rightly argue, but what's the point complaining about faked pictures or sensationalist reporting when such horrible events are really taking take place and are there to be reported? It's like complaining about how the Hezbollah manipulated the media by pretending to be rescue workers, waving dead Lebanese babies under the lenses of the media during the recent Israel Palestine war. Shame on them for making us feel even more guilty about the babies we helped to kill.

    As for "doing what they honestly feel is good for their country": German soldiers had the same idea during WWII. The road to hell, mate...
     
  18. E.E.L. Ambiense

    E.E.L. Ambiense Acrylic Heretic

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    That goes without saying, but that's also the assuming that people are intelligent enough to open their minds and read and learn.
     
  19. Hugo.B

    Hugo.B What's a Dremel?

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    I live in Scotland, and believe me, I'd love military rule, it'd make things a bit more lively.
     
  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Yeah... :duh: I knew I went wrong in my reasoning somewhere...
     

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