Should trans women be allowed to take part in womens sports?

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Weekly_Estimate, 9 Apr 2023.

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title

  1. Yes

    4 vote(s)
    11.8%

  2. No

    30 vote(s)
    88.2%
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  1. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman World's worst stuntman. Lover of bit-tech

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    Professional sports people are mentally deranged. Apply their mentality and actions to other things that don't generate vast quantities of money and they'd be sectioned. We have seen time and time again that someone them are willing to go to extreme lengths in search of glory.

    And where there is sport and glory, there is money, and people willing to do unscrupulous things to get a chunk of that money. HRT ruined the UFC for a time, with many fighters paying doctors to put them on the treatment to gain an advantage. Or just look at how quickly Lewis Hamilton got a doctor to write him a sick note to the FIA saying he can't take out his piercings because it would permanently disfigure him. An infinitely more minor thing, but still an example of "money talks"

    I think there will eventually come a time when trans people compete at the Olympics, but it's going to take a few goes at getting it right, there might need to be several categories to account for when someone transitioned and/or how long it has been and it might need to be on a discipline-by-discipline basis, and if that happens in the next century I'd be surprised, because until it's tested we won't know.

    The biggest stumbling block, from my view anyway, is how we think about "gender" as a whole and how your physical self and identity are connected in ways that they probably shouldn't be. Even today, we still think of it in terms relative to the 2 physical sexes, because that's what we've designated and pigeon holed people for so long. "you have a penis, so you must confirm to this behaviour and do these things. You have a vagina, so can't do any of that, but have these other ones instead" is enshrined so deeply that if you portray behaviours of the opposite sex, well you must be gay or trans or "insert vastly oversimplified label here". This (in my opinion anyway) is bollocks. You are who you are. Behave how you feel you should, what feels like you, dress how like, screw who you like, and f### anyone who tells you otherwise.
     
    Last edited: 9 Apr 2023
    The_Crapman, 9 Apr 2023
    #21
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  2. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    I don't disagree that you need a level of dedication to be a top-tier athlete, a level that rivals a lot of other dedications.

    But generally they aren't verbally attacked in the street, they don't have comedians making over the top jokes that are basically insults about them (I recall a couple of jokes about Michael Phelps, but those were accompanied by a lot of praise for his swimming), they don't have people holding rallies against their existence with literal Nazi's, they don't have people calling for their outright eradication, like Helen Joyce saying 'their number needs to be reduced' or Michael Knowles saying they should be eradicated to CPAC, and generally don't have to fight tooth and nail to exist. Top tier athletes are generally not called paedophiles, they're generally not dehumanised at every opportunity, they typically don't have people like JK Rowling suing them into silence. Are they certifiable for their dedication to being the best? Perhaps. Are they doing it under the kind of duress that a trans person is? I sincerely doubt it. For some trans people, today might be their last day, whether they've stood up and said 'this is who I am' or not. I don't know the suicide rates amongst people trying to be top tier athletes, but I suspect it's not really in the same league as trans folks.

    Money does talk, but the worst of the worst come crawling out of the woodwork to attack trans people. Hell, even non-binary people. Mae Martin has a bit of spotlight at the moment, with being on Taskmaster (How I bumped into their existence), and their special on Netflix. They're very funny, IMO, and they're non binary. In their special they talk about what their teenage life was like, and getting top surgery (double mastectomy in their case), and they say something to the tune of 'It's been the happiest year of my life' further clarifying that it's not because being on a low dose of testosterone has made them euphoric, but because it's 'the absence of agony'. That they have the language to put to how they felt as a teenager, and a better understanding of who they are, and that has given them some semblance of peace.

    I hadn't seen the special before I saw a tweet from a GC on twitter saying something to the tune, I can't find it now because it's an impossible task to keep up with all the horrendous **** GC people say, of 'people cheering that a woman got a double mastectomy, sickening'. This person doesn't care that Mae found some basic level of self comfort, which is what people cheered, because Mae is non-binary. That kind of horseshit talk is mild.

    Everyone's favourite sack of rotten offel had an opinion on Mae, too:



    And that's one of the mildest things he says about trans/non-binary people. Sure, he is way off the deepend, but he is hardly the only one. The Daily Mail have multiple anti-trans hit pieces per day, the BBC prefer to platform accused rapists that attack trans people rather than be impartial and present any kind of science, the Guardian platforms anti-trans pieces and people all the time.

    I can't claim to know what that's like - I'm a generic white bloke, after all - But I sit quietly in a discord of trans folks and seeing how the world around them constantly grinds them down, how everything that I'd never have thought twice about is indirectly excluding them, or directly excluding them, I can't help but think there's slightly more pressing concerns on the trans topic than who can jump higher.

    If someone can endure all the hate a trans person endures and still make it to the top of a sport then **** it, they deserve the goddamn medal.
     
    liratheal, 10 Apr 2023
    #22
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  3. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman World's worst stuntman. Lover of bit-tech

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    I don't think there's anyone with a conscience that would dispute that trans people go through utter hell. My point is that opening competition has to be really well thought out to prevent soulless egotistical maniacs (also known as professional athletes) from abusing the system, so that a male Venezuelan powerlifter can't bribe a few doctors and officials and be declared female by their government and athletic association, without having to go through the years of heartache and abuse that actual trans people do, in pursuit of success. There has to be safeguards to protect all athletes competing, to protect them physically, emotionally and the integrity of their sport.
     
    The_Crapman, 10 Apr 2023
    #23
  4. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Wouldn't existing drug testing requirements - if we go ahead and assume they're properly applied, of course - work fine for preventing that, though?

    As it stands, I know of at least one female athlete - three, it turns out, here - banned from competing because their natural testosterone levels are considered too high. They're cisgender, they're (allegedly) not juicing - they just have a quirk of biology which gives them an edge, like how that swimmer dude's ridiculous wingspan gives him an edge.

    If a dude rocks up to the Olympics and says "I'mma compete in the Women's Whatever" then I can only imagine his testosterone levels are going to be even higher. And, thus, he would be excluded based on the existing rules using the existing testing infrastructure.

    If a transwoman rocks up to the Olympics and says "I'mma compete in the Women's Whatever", then she will either be excluded based on the same above rules or her testosterone levels will be within the guidelines - meaning she is undergoing hormone therapy, at the very least, and will have lost a big chunk of the edge that being a man would naturally provide.

    (Well, that being some men would naturally provide. There ain't no way I'm beating a female athlete, cis or otherwise, at piggin' anything. Have you seen me run? Christ.)

    I'm not saying the "too much testosterone, get out" rule is great, given that we've already seen it's unfairly excluding cisgender athletes before we even try to apply it to transgender athletes, but it exists and could easily be applied. Though then there's the transmen, who will be taking extra testosterone - something the cisgendered male athletes aren't allowed to do. Guess you could set an upper limit there, too, maybe?

    Anyway, my point is: I really don't think any big muscly men are putting on a gym skirt and trying to compete as a woman, and if they are existing rules should stop 'em in their tracks unless they really commit to the bit and go through long-term HRT complete with the growing-boobs and shrinking-your-meat-and-two-veg side-effects.
     
    Gareth Halfacree, 10 Apr 2023
    #24
  5. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    Cards on the table, I don't see a solution to the trans people in sport. I don't care enough about runny jumpy ball kicking to try.

    All I know is that right now trans people are being scapegoated for things they have no stake in, are being hounded because right wing fascist types see it as a gateway to a whole new branch of idiots (If you ever fancy a laugh, look up mumsnet anti-trans people who have questioned why the Nazi's are on their side, and how quickly they get shut down. Look at the absolute morons that say things like 'at least the X knows what a woman is' when that X is something that has, traditionally, been very anti-women) to bolster their numbers.

    Wasting time talking about the statistically insignificant sport situation is taking time away from demanding trans people get the help and support they need to live their life. When people aren't stabbing them, beating them, or actively seeking to eradicate a group of people who just want to be left alone and to be allowed to be who they are, maybe then is the time for a discussion on how best to keep sport level.

    Personally, I'm in favor of a free-for-all. I've been told, although can find no evidence to back it up (Also have not looked hard), that some sports were segregated because women were better than men. Looking at some womens sports teams versus their male counterparts, I can see where that might be coming from..
     
    liratheal, 10 Apr 2023
    #25
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  6. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman World's worst stuntman. Lover of bit-tech

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    WADA should be able to find and disqualify them, but they don't always. You could have situations where it's not found till after medal ceremonies etc, seen it happen so many times, even with people who were never (publicly) suspected like Marion Jones who in think just came out and admitted it out of guilt rather than any tests finding banned substances (I think). The examples you gave of natural abnormal hormone levels show why it's going to be really hard and will take a long time and likely see many setbacks and controversy.

    Sports biggest problem is it's own success and the money it generates, which is sickening when you think of how much a difference that could make in medical research etc.
     
    The_Crapman, 10 Apr 2023
    #26
  7. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Fair. Alternative proposal, then: we don't ban trans people, we ban sports. Much easier, completely fair, and maybe we can go back to football being something you did in the off hours after your proper job.

    I'm only being partially facetious, here...
     
    Gareth Halfacree, 10 Apr 2023
    #27
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  8. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman World's worst stuntman. Lover of bit-tech

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    I don't disagree with that, despite being a fan of many sports, including football. I don't think the wage limit should ever have been lifted. Yeh you can kick a ball really well, but can you analyse the DNA sequencing of a new strain of virus and spot weaknesses in the receptor proteins that could be exploited?
     
    The_Crapman, 10 Apr 2023
    #28
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  9. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    Only model I see that could potentially work is like in boxing where there are divisions beyond the flavor of genitalia.
     
    Anfield, 12 Apr 2023
    #29
  10. sonicgroove

    sonicgroove Radical Atheist

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    Yeah why not? It'd be hilarious!! The UFC would certainly be insane!! I'm all for it. But then, I am also all for allowing ALL drugs in sport. Imagine how cool it'd be to watch the 100m run in 3 seconds flat :D Imagine watching someone do the pole vault while on shrooms. Have at it guys! why so serious all the time?

    At the current rate of take up, it won't be long before ALL womens sport will just be trans athletes competing against eachother anyway as they will be the only ones able to qualify for the events.
     
    sonicgroove, 15 Nov 2023
    #30
  11. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

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    The problem with that, would be a sharp increase in sports people dying...

    Drug controls were brought in after Tommy Simpson died on Mont Ventoux in the Tour de France. He had taken amphetamines with alcohol.

    Before long there would be no-one left, to run 100m in 3 seconds...
     
    Mr_Mistoffelees, 15 Nov 2023
    #31
  12. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    That's a funny way of spelling 'idiots'
     
    mrlongbeard, 15 Nov 2023
    #32
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  13. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    These conversations always seems to be concentrated on the male to female direction of transition...

    If a M->F Transition wants to take part, and as @Gareth Halfacree reference, they don;t fall foul of the same things that led to the like of Caster Semenya [and that's is probably a whole separate discussion] being excluded - crack on.
    If a F->M transition wants to take part, and they meet the relevant bar for entry wrt qualifying times - crack on
    If another paralympian wants to compete against the able-bodied field, like Oscar Pistorious did [before... you know what...] - crack on
     
    Last edited: 15 Nov 2023
    RedFlames, 15 Nov 2023
    #33
  14. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    It's a bit more complicated really.

    The M>F route also has to factor in male puberty that results in bigger lungs, heart, bone density and so on. It's not just a testosterone issue.

    I'd like there to be an open discussion about it though where facts are used, rather than it being used by some people who just want an outlet for their hate or others accusing those who want to discuss it before saying 'yes/no' as being some sort of phobe.

    As for paralympians in the Olympics, there's the issue about when the technology advances in blades so that, as in cases like Pistorious, he would have had the 'advantage' of not having lactic acid build up.

    I don't want anybody to feel they can't take part in a sport but it has to be a fair playing field
     
    adidan, 15 Nov 2023
    #34
  15. Byron C

    Byron C Multimodder

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    I honestly think this is such a small issue that's been blown way out of proportion. The only reason this is even a "public debate" in the first place is that right-wing sh**bags are making a big song and dance about it so they can use it as wedge issue.

    I mean...

    ...sounds good to me. Of course there are going to be issues here and there, but there are already issues with cisgender women as @Gareth Halfacree pointed out earlier.
     
    Byron C, 15 Nov 2023
    #35
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  16. ElThomsono

    ElThomsono Multimodder

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    Yeah this is pretty much an issue for the sporting bodies themselves to decide upon; the whole trans thing is largely irrelevant in day to day life, it's just something to sell tabloids.

    Sport is an obvious sticking point but the other battleground is prisons, where the real issue is that they're not safe for anyone in the first place.

    And anyway, the only sport that matters is snooker.

    Edit: obviously the way trans people are being attacked is a huge issue, but we already have legislation to deal with bigotry.
     
    ElThomsono, 15 Nov 2023
    #36
  17. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    100%
     
    adidan, 15 Nov 2023
    #37
  18. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    For transparency, I have deleted an embedded video from this thread which espoused a broadly discredited theory drummed up by a journalist with no medical or psychological qualifications whatsoever and which promulgates the idea that there's a "trans agenda" that a shadowy cabal (and no prizes for guessing for which group is typically blamed) is pushing in order to flip the gender of all the world's kids.

    Though they never seem to get to the "why" part...

    Debate is fine. Disinformation and propaganda is not. That is all. As you were.
     
    Gareth Halfacree, 21 Nov 2023
    #38
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  19. Byron C

    Byron C Multimodder

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    Yes, I did watch the first minute or two and did a brief search on the author.

    As you say @Gareth Halfacree, I think we’ll leave it at that.
     
    Byron C, 21 Nov 2023
    #39
  20. sonicgroove

    sonicgroove Radical Atheist

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    Let's try this one for a more relevant take.. :D

     
    sonicgroove, 21 Nov 2023
    #40
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