Should trans women be allowed to take part in womens sports?

As a longstanding member of this forum for over a decade, I appreciate our commitment to inclusivity and respect for gender identity. The issue of trans women participating in women's sports is complex, with differing opinions. On one hand, there are those who argue that not allowing trans women to compete in women's sports is discriminatory. However, there are also concerns raised about potential physical advantages that some trans women may retain after transitioning, which could impact fair competition among athletes.

I'm curious to know your thoughts on this topic.

 

Reports suggest there are many retained benefits despite the performance loss the trans person would experience from a reduction in testosterone so it's a no from me.

 

Nope, absolutely not.
A third 'open' category should be created for those that wish to compete

 

Is this an actual problem that needs to be solved, or is this one of those things where it's kinda none of your business and should be handled entirely privately on a case-by-case basis?

I remember the absolute hell that Caster Semenya was put through. She had every minute detail of her life and her biology publicly exposed, examined, and debated.

 

I'd say it's extremely complicated and simply not as day and night as the poll suggests.

Is it a problem because trans women participating in women's sports are winning?
Would it then be a non issue if they don't win?
If going case by case, will only the winners be singled out?
What about trans men, should they be allowed to participate in men's sports?
Is it ok because they're not winning?
What if they do win, would it be a problem then?


I don't think a hard no is the answer, nor is a third category. Simple solutions for complex problems is a very dangerous route to go down. A third category marginalizes an already marginalized group of people. A hard no can be a short term solution as sporting bodies (HAH) figure out how to level the playing field, but a better solution is needed.

I don't have a solution, I'm not an expert on sports nor anatomy, I'm a couch potato, but the above solutions ain't it.

 

Take the 100m sprint - the men's world record is nearly a second quicker than the women's.

I could be a decentish male sprinter with no hope of getting anywhere near Usain Bolt's time and stil be a league ahead of Flo-Jo but, depending how competitive (desperate?) I am, what's to stop me declaring as trans, going through the process, and then absolutely smashing the women's record?

It can't be a binary competition, but then how does a third category help? Trans man and trans women would still have the same gulf in physical attributes, making a single trans category unworkable too. Also, at what point do we stop segmenting and pigeon-holing people?

No, I don't have the answers either.

 

It's a tricky situation but it's one that should be discussed (minus any obvious random excuse for attacks - I don't care how people live their lives to be happy so long as it's not at the expense of others).

Do I have enough knowledge on the subject, undoubtedly no. I don't want anybody excluded from sport but then I want sport to be 'fair' and I guess that's why we have so many categories in the Paralympics.

Sports are separated by biology at the moment.
You could have no categories at all. Is that 'fair'?
You could have prostate/non-prostate categories.
I don't know how you'd do it.

I do think it should be discussed though but not used as a vehicle for hate nor for a vehicle to attack people wanting to find a workable solution.

Edit: It depends on the sport too. Look at horse racing, men and women compete against each other so it won't be any issue at all.

 

If it involves a high degree of physicality then allowing trans-women to compete against biological women is wholly unfair on those women. Does that suck for trans-women? Yes. Is it the fairest outcome though? Yes.

 

So, so, much. Transitioning is not a 'snap fingers done' thing. Hell, getting appointments at the appropriate places for most people can take literal years. Someone I know has been waiting seven years for an initial assessment. As far as I can tell, self-medication is common, in the UK especially, because it's near impossible to get anywhere unless you have the money to do it privately.

Honestly, that plus the social stigma, the unbridled hate that you would attract from big names, the abuse in the street? I think you'd be giving up on transitioning just to get an athletics medal.

Honestly, if trans women were so common and so much better at their given sport that they were dominating every aspect of every sport, I think it might have been noticed.

IMO the only reason it's being whipped up into a frenzy is because the trans panic is following the gay panic playbook almost word for word.

 

Personally I vote yes. Arbitrary lines are drawn within society and we can change those as we grow.

My understanding is biology (genetics, nutrition, luck) combined with life chances (based on things like geography, sociology-economic, parental structure) dictates your aptitude and a lot of your ultimate success in sport.

Life isn’t equal, because someone has had the misfortune to be born into the wrong gender and transitioned shouldn’t in my opinion prevent them competing as there now aligned gender.

But as a white middle aged male I shouldn’t really get a vote.

 

From everything that has been said I couldn’t care less what a trans person does or does not do in their life, after all it is there’s to do what they wish with it.

For the purpose of sports and the advantage the male biologically has over a female, allowing a trans person to compete in any sport where the records of men dominate and even the terrible men are still head and shoulders above the best women puts the idea of competing in question. The initial purpose was to test what was both mentally and biologically possible (with the emphasis on biological), removing or changing this blurs that line was determined by “women’s or mens” and even though mentally this shouldn’t make a difference, physically it simply cannot be anything other than a contributing factor. Breasts, reproductive organs/tissue etc I don’t believe make any difference to sport (I’m sure there may be some exceptions) but the strength and skeletal structure between the biology does. This is why I see this as a firm no unless we remove the men’s and women’s competing factor and open this up to all. The issue with that however would be very few if any records for women with the rest being mostly men and the odd trans woman thrown in which would lead to an even larger layer of suppression.

 

Oh, and while I'm still here, what about FTM transioners?

Should they be forced to compete in female sports despite being on testosterone?

'Cause Mack Beggs was required to compete in the girls group and absolutely dominated them.

Very possibly even seen this picture floating about;



that's Mack, FTM fellow, doing what he was legally obliged to do if he wanted to continue wrestling. Wrestling cis girls. Despite, if you believe the Semenya situation, having testosterone levels too high to be in the womens grouping.

Edit: I don't believe for a second that the discussion on trans people in sport can be had in good conscience until trans people aren't at a tipping point of being treated genocidally. While there's still literal Nazi's at anti-trans events being supported by extremely wealthy people, cough Rowling cough, I'm not convinced the debate over who can run in a circle faster, or throw a stick further, is particularly important.

 

Could not agree any more if I tried.

 

Where did I say it was a simple "snap fingers" process? Look at the lengths Lance Armstrong went to for success, and tell me there aren't people out there willing to dedicate the time in order to potentially move from mediocre to world class; when they've already dedicated a large portion of their time to reach the level they're at.

 

I didn't say you did. The rather flippant 'going through the process' notion made my eye twitch, because the kind of commitment necessary to transition is only found in people who want to transition. And even some trans folks de-transition because the burdens of transition are so high. Especially in the current climate - Every politician has some horrendous rhetoric to spout, and there isn't a UK party that doesn't have outwardly transphobic members. There are some that do try and help, but they still have rancid arses in their midst hindering them at every turn. It takes a determination to transition that is so high that I find it laughable, and I'd wager a fair few people find it insulting, to suggest that someone could 'go through the process' just to win a sporting event.

Is it plausible that it happens? Yeah kind of - But the percentage of trans people in any given country is so small and the percentage of that percentage who want to compete at some internationally recognised level and have the support network necessary to do both at even remotely the same time (Because let's face it, how many sports people ascend to international recognition and do so in their thirties and forties? Doing one after the other is going to take a lot more time than most top level athletes have) is so infantesimally small that it makes it unworthy of consideration IMO.

What Armstrong did, in my opinion, is exploit an ethical void and be a weak minded tosser - I don't for a fraction of a second believe he'd have the strength of will to transition just for the sake of medals.

 

On top of this, in the UK at least it is so difficult to even begin to transition thats it's literally criminal!

Goes into it in great detail about something that is literally breaking laws! So don't for a second think people do it for any kind of funzies. Trans people are far more likely to kill themselves for not being able to transition than to do it for a misleading reason!

 

Not sure the source of the joke but if it was the 100 meter dash in high heels, I think it's OK to compete.

(To clarify, my son transitioned four years ago with his most recent op being a hysterectomy).

 

IIRC Sandyford had 2576 people on the waiting list vs 21 first appointments offered in the preceding 12 months. That's not a short time. Tavistock GIC had 12296 people on the waiting list with 41 first appointments offered during the month. That's a quarter of a century to go through all the people on that list when the status update was publisted. That waiting list has grown since so... Yeah, its ugly.

There's a reason why my alter ego Red is a prominent member in the DIY scene. I've lost count on how many I've helped directly, easily 200+, to start their real lives. Indirectly? Careful estimate is "thousands".

Bit more on topic: trans women in women's sports is fine by me as long as hormone checks are done and results are within female ranges. Add a requirement of 2+ years of HRT and ta-da, there you go. I can vouch you lose a lot of muscle going from T to E as my arms for example have dwindled down to lady arms. Maintaining muscle on E requires more exercise as T by its sheer nature is an anabolic steroid hormone but E is "only" a steroid hormone

Tell him Donna says happy days

 

This was a good video, thanks for the link.