Bit-Tech Brexit Poll

Just because someone's feelings are valid, doesn't mean that their thinking or acting on those feelings are. Yes, they have lots of valid reasons to feel disenfranchised and betrayed. No, that does not give automatic validity to their actions. I appreciate that if the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything starts to look like David Cameron's face, but it doesn't change the fact that they allowed themselves to be swayed by blatant, hostile, nasty propaganda because basically, the narrative appealed to them. They swallowed the BS from the same politicians they previously complained screwed them over for decades without as much as firing up Google and just checking a few facts (if they could do it after the vote, why not a few weeks before?) because they were too preoccupied with sticking it to the man and blaming some foreigners.

I am a socialist no more. There is only so much compassion you can muster for a persistent self-harmer, especially if they wish harm on you too.

What can I say? Like the people who voted Leave, I feel a bit hard done by too. As a EU immigrant I have contributed to the NHS, paid my taxes, integrated into British society and cared for the disenfranchised in the estates that my service covers for 24 years. Then I see immigrants being held up as the bogey man, the criminal who comes to this country to abuse its welfare system and molest its women and the electorate laps it up and wants us gone. 25% of Brexit voters wants all EU immigrants deported --including those already settled here. Including me.

I've been a bit stressed about this. I've been filling out my Indefinite Leave to Remain papers, digging up my P60s to prove I have been working here longer than five years, and checking up my immigration status after a Brexit (answer: nobody knew). So, if the Leavers' actions should be understood in the context of their very valid feelings of disenfranchisement, then perhaps the tone of my posts deserves the same consideration.

 

Where are you planting the flag now then?

 

In an attempt to integrate as a British citizen I'll follow the country's example of planting it in my own back yard.

 

not the south of france then

 

When I retire (if I make it).

 

Everybody I know who voted is plain old working class, ie in work but not rich enough to not be in debt.
Most voted leave and were against the EU even before this referendum.
I know a few people who are neet's and most of that lot refuse to vote.

I guess it depends on the area you live, But to say it was the poor that got a leave vote is bordering ignorance shown by that of the so-called political class.

There are plenty of workers, coppers, fireman. NHS staff, civil service and military who have no problem talking about their leave vote, Why would they lie, Unless of course you buy into the PC world that demonizes anybody with an opinion that is outside the norms of cultural marxism.
If this is the start of the death of marxism and it's long march through our institutions, we are all the wiser for it. The word is out and people are starting to wake up.

 

As soon as you used the words "Marxism" and "wake up" I decided to tune you out, sorry.

 

the problem though with these protests , as I can see is again its the `angry yoof` throwing a tantrum

like they did last year when labour were hammered in the elections and why corbyn got voted in

 

Depends on where you want to draw the line on your definition of "poor" but that's exactly what happened, it's not ignorance, it's fact, 64% of non working, semi-skilled, unskilled manual workers, and skilled working class voted to leave, it's an almost 50-50 split among lower middle class, and finally the middle class, and upper middle class favored remain by 57-43%.

 

So..
There's talks of a new general election. One that if the lib dems win would over turn the EU result as its a new mandate.

All those in favour of stay from a torie perspective would vote lib dem, as would the labour side.. This could very well mean that the EU vote to leave may be over ruled and a new 5 year stint would follow from the referendum vote.

As a temp measure I wouldn't put it past many party followers to vote lib dem in order to succeed in this.

The issue is the current PM needs to push for a general election which he can't as he resigned.

The tories are fighting to keep boris from rising to power, labour are fighting within them selves and the lib dems are sitting at the side line waiting to politically black mail an entire country to vote them in in a bid to stop the referendum result.

Anywho, that's the measure I have from it, flick on the news BBC, SKY etc and make what you will from the chaos. I'm blown away, regardless of result, the people have spoken and yet again politics are looking to over throw it all..

 

wont be another general - the fixed term act of 2011 puts paid to that idea

 

AFAIK a GE can be called but it would need a vote of no confidence in the government, I'm not sure what the rules are for a no confidence vote, were in strange times so I'm not ruling anything out but a no confidence vote seems unlikely.

If however there was a GE every political party would stand on re-written manifestos, i.e they can say they'd ignored the referendum result, accept it, trigger Article 50, or any number of things relating to future relations with the EU.

 

The people haven't spoken; the people have ranted. In a referendum , which has no legal status whatsoever in any case.

Already the key promises made by Leave have been nixed. Congratulations Leavers, you voted for nothing. There will be no extra money for the NHS and no reduction in immigration and no immediate invocation of Article 50.

And do you see Johnson pitching for the job? Or Gove? Hell no, because being PM of the Tory party has just become a poison chalice: they would become responsible for triggering Article 50 and nobody has the balls to actually do it, because they have no plan.

Chris Grayling has already started psychologically preparing people for a long delay on invoking Article 50 and the aim of continued EEA membership, with all the implications of membership fees and free movement, while reminding people of Labour as a bad choice in case a general election is called.

If the UK Brexits at all. I think it was always the plan to delay Article 50 until after the 2020 elections in any case, and the Lib Dems have already positioned themselves as the Remain choice. That's 48% of highly motivated voters right there. And if they win, Brexit is off.

 

actually there will be money for the NHS - IDS has said there will be extra money but not the full £350 million - he can see which way the wind is blowing


oh and geert wilders is drumming up support in the Netherlands for an attempt at Nexit....

you have al;ready linked the plan flexcit , but a lot of hard and fast negotiation needs to happen before france lurches to the right and starts playing outside the rule book

 

Means nothing. The Conservatives have managed to make a 20% cut in NHS budget sound like increased investment over the last years ("Look! We're giving an extra £8billion! and cutting by £22billion at the same time.). You wouldn't believe the creative bookkeeping practices that go on in the NHS.

 

Maybe a better way to put it would be that they voted *against* something not *for* something.

 

An even better way to put it would be that they have registered their opinion against something, not for something.

 

unlike the Scottish referendum the result doesn't have legal sway

on the other hand , it would take a leader with huge steel balls to ignore the will of the people ; loud left wing students not withstanding

 

I'm in two minds about that, to be honest. An electorate that can be manipulated in one direction can be manipulated in another.

The two key Leave promises of membership fees for the NHS and end to free movement have already been broken, and Leavers are still celebrating the referendum as a victory. Article 50 has been indefinitely delayed and it's no problem. The markets went all wobbly, the Pound dropped, the UK went from 5th to 6th largest economy and its credit rating was lowered as its market lost the equivalent of 20 years of EU membership fees in a day, and it is all dismissed as a temporary glitch.

So frankly I think that a new PM can get away with anything, just as Vote Leave could. They could even cancel Brexit altogether; what would people do? Protest? Riot? Did they while successive governments screwed them over for the last decades? No. Their entire defiant response to decades of neglect and exploitation came down to ticking a box on a ballot paper. Now they are bathing in the afterglow for a bit, refusing to have their buzz harshed by political and economic realities. Next week it's back to the daily grind as usual.

I wouldn't dismiss 48% of the population as a few loud left-wing students. Nearly half of the population is a big chunk. That's a lot of support for a political party.

 

I know junckers has said the deal is off - but the EC has already taken the UK to court over the restriction of benefits and lost

another thing that ofc is bugging me is why when we have 3 presidents in Europe is it 1 making the most noise , or is he positioning himself to be the 1 true president