Don't you guys watch CSI? Don't go on appearance, follow the evidence... In any case, before we get the torches and pitchforks and assemble a lynch mob, let's consider the context: Note, this was near where Ian Tomlinson was struck. So things were already a little volatile there. Nor was Mr. Tomlinson quite as pure as the driven snow: The "increasingly ugly mood" could of course be ascribed to the Police's heavy-handed tactics. The Guardian comments: Now, as a psychologist I would argue that penning a crowd into an increasingly small space and not allowing them to disperse is exactly the wrong way of dealing with a potentially volatile situation. As the article goes on to say: Hey, we signed up for it when we signed up for the War on Terror™. We rubber-stamped it when we let Jean-Charles De Menezes' murder (because yes, there was an intent to kill) go unchallenged. This is the future. On the other hand, we're not in police state Britain just yet. This was not Tien An Min Square by a long shot, nor how things are usually handled in South America, and at least the papers get to publicly criticise how the police acted. The next step is up to us. We can be responsible citizens and keep this event in mind the next time we vote (give Boris Johnson his due, at least he got rid of Sir Blair). We can make sure that due process is followed in the legal prosecution of this police officer and his superiors. As Tomlinson's family says: We can act as informed members of a democratic state. But if we reach for the rope and torches, what are we then just another bunch of self-righteous bullies?
I'm sure there are well-qualified psychologists who think the penning helps maintain civil order. The problem here is that far from being an exact science, psychology is subject to trends and fancies of the day (aka "schools of thought"). Political correctness is the current corrupter of honest research (and in a much wider field than just yours). --------------------- The attitude from some critics in this thread appears to be Whatever the provocation, the police must not bite But all police are scum and it's OK to provoke them Now if someone threw a brick at you, what would you do? If several people have been throwing things at you, and another comes along who obviously is no fan-boy of yours, do you pre-empt? Any yob would. So would a few citizens who would class themselves as with the good guys. A pity it's the Guardian leading with this; not the most neutral of newspapers. That means letting him off with a slap on the hand like the afore-mentioned yob would be when he's put someone in A&E on the average Saturday.
I was under the impression that the method of penning up protesters is used as it keeps them all in one group and in one place - thus making them much easier to control e.g. even if the crowd does become violent they cannot take over the whole of the city centre...
Penning leads to confusion, confusion leads to violence, violence leads to anger, anger leads to more violence... yeah, that's an awesome idea... if you want to convert people to the Dark side...
Do you think the Latin races (which I'm assuming includes you) are, in general, more hot-blooded than the Germanic or is that just racist stereotyping? In other words, do you think the same tactics are universal? With many UK people, penning will lead to FUD. The majority of protesters are not urban guerillas, they're liberal tree-huggers. Oh, and shrink that sig or suffer some very nazi brutality.
It's basic human nature to lash out when you're cornered. You don't need third level education in psychology to know this. Lets say you, and a group of friends, were walking down the street while another group brandishing weapons were on the other side of the street - Are you going to start anything? I think not. Now lets say you and your group of friends have been cornered in an alleyway by the other heavily armed group - Are you and your friends going to start swinging punches? Yes you are, because the "flight" has been removed from your options of - fight or flight. This behaviour isn't even confined to our species. You might chase a stray dog down the street, but if you corner that same stray dog be prepared to get bitten.
It's exactly that. Much much easier for control if you have 100 officers in a circumference around a crowd 10x the size. But, if that same crowd is divided into smaller groups of 10 or 20 people you have only 1 or 2 officers available to deal with an unpredictable group with a lot of free space and the tables can turn swiftly. Also, If something does kick off, crowd controlling equipment like gas, water hoses and rubber bullets can be implemented very effectively when the crowd is encircled, far less to a point of uselessness if the crowd is widely dispersed. It's guerilla tactics. Psychology isn't considered I wouldn't have thought.
Ok lets look at this from a different angle IF instead of it being a member of the public being hit walking 30 yards and then having a heartattack, what if it had been a police officer struck in the same manner with the same amount of force with the police officer walking 30 yards and the officer having a heart attack and then dying would you being calling for the arrest of that member of the public in the same manner that every one seems to be for the police officer right now. Should the matter be investigated : Definately Should the police officer be suspended until such time as the investigation is concluded : of course Should the police officer be tried by the general public and the media : NO like everyone else in this country he is entitled to a fair trial which it is highly unlikely he will get as everyone seems to have an opinion on this matter even if they do not have all the facts.
shamefully the internet does not transmit my face and my feelings in the text i write.. I was not "racist stereotyping", far from that, generally when you corner a group of "animals" they tend to become violent and lash out at you, as VipersGratitude puts, you loose your choice to run away and leave the police alone, and do the only thing that is in your grasp that may free you. as i put it before: "Penning leads to confusion, confusion leads to violence, violence leads to anger, anger leads to more violence" a tight group of scared people are more prone to becoming confuse confused people tend to do dumb things and violence may be one of them, considering that you have lots of people in that pen then the probability of violence increases. violence leads to anger when a person that did not want to be there is hit by a person that reacted to the situation with violence the angry person will also lash out and create more violence the end effect is a chain reaction of violence and hate that will destroy the peace of the place. Race, sex and ethnicity are irrelevant, we are all human and humanly flawed, and in stress these flaws tend to grow. i then topped it off with a sarcastic remark and a geek'ish remark As for my signature, i have had this size of signature for some time (since December i think) and no moderator has called it big, as you are a moderator and i do not want to mess with you or anyone i will lower the size of the letters ASAP, even if at this size it is smaller than what the rules dictate and is also smaller than some of the signatures i find in these forums. Also, Portuguese are not strictly Latin, they have a nice mix of Arab and other cultures, like the Moors. I also have to say that Portuguese people are to Latin what Australians are to Germanic, we are slowwww and calmmmm edit: signature updated, i hope its ok now.
I concur I only wish my dad taught me the language from birth ¬_¬ I have a massive problem learning languages.
They say that Portuguese is one of the most difficult languages to learn, but you can learn anything it you want to, you just need people that will talk with you in that language and help you train.
As in having attacked the Police or as in been beaten prior to incident four? Also, incidents involving the very same Police officer who beat him as seen in the video? Anyway.. From what I can tell the man posed no threat, none whatsoever.
In practice the problem tends to be more that the (research) psychologists that would be consulted by the police on these matters (if at all) often have no clinical experience. It matters. Loftus' research on False Memory Syndrome for instance would have looked very different if the had been a clinician as well. But that, as I said, is if they are consulted at all. The police has its school of thought as well. Even in the NHS, which should know better, we are rarely involved in sometimes quite important issues off patient and staff behaviour. It simply does not occur to anyone that this is our field of expertise. It's all working towards a tragic outcome stuff: some scenarios are bound to end in disaster: From what I have read he had been drinking heavily before the event. On his way home, according to witnesses he deliberately blocked a moving police van and ignored commands to get out of its way. Two police officers then moved him out of the way, which he resisted (photos included that showed all this happening). This was at about 6.00 pm. He then had another altercation at 7.15 pm in which he was pushed down and hit with a baton. at 7.20 pm was the incident that we have all seen on YouTube. You did watch it, did you? I did. Something bothered me about the scene, which led me to find out about the other confrontations. Watch Ian Tomlinson before he gets pushed: calmly sauntering just before the riot police line, hands in pockets. It's as if he hardly realises what is going on just behind him. But this is a man who just had two altercations with the police. Rightly or wrongly, do your think that if that had happened to you, you would still be anywhere near the riot police? You would steer well clear of them. But there he is, sauntering just feet before the advancing line, hands in pockets. He was provoking. He was saying: "you can't make me go anywhere I don't want to go". Like I said: working towards a tragic outcome.
I hope you didn't translate my words as inferring such; in fact I was asking if I was stereotyping in imputing emotional differences to the behaviour of, say, a largely Caucasian mob in London and a largely Latin mob in Lisbon or Rome. Political correctness goes too far in saying everyone is alike. When you have a crowd of a few hundred natives, it becomes a sample and different samples need different treatments. With an American crowd the police would be pointing guns at them, not batons. Your sig is a good example of the excitable Latin temperament - large, bold and fiery red in parts. But as a Staff member now has the biggest most distracting sig on the board, forget that ruling, it would be grossly unfair to criticise others.
On the plus side, at least it seems that the investigation is being handled correctly (for now at least). Officer in question suspended, independent inquiry held. On a pedantic note, one of my pet peeves is the misuse of infer- cpemma, you implied, DXR inferred *grumble* /rant
This is what I thought as soon as I saw it, doesn't look like hes just walking home does it? Can everyone just put themselves in the shoes of the Police Officers who had to control these crowds for a minute, its not a nice place to be is it? Furthermore in Police/Military terms he didn't hit the guy in any 'red zones' so I don't even think his superiors will judge him to have used excessive force.
thank you for understanding A large mob of Portuguese people in Lisbon will lead to 3 things: absolutely nothing, the 25th of April, or, if you push them far enough, a huge ball of fiery s***. the biggest problems comes when you corner a large group of people, people forget that they are human and act like irrational animals... this makes nationality and race a moot point, everyone (even hard core pacifists) have a wild animal within and if you push people far enough that animal will come out. A good example of the above is the s**t storm that is happening or has happened in Greece. As for an American crowd... they have a high probability of carrying guns... something that does not happen in the UK. link for more knowledge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution i will restore my sig to its previous size, if the size becomes an issue later on please inform me and i will reduce its size immediately. thank you for the comprehension.
All I can say is thank god scum like this is off the streets (and away from our kids lord protect them)
Provocation doesn't come in to it. Excessive force was used. Children can be disobedient, children don't always want to go the places you want them to go...but if a parent beat thier child with a stick and pushed him to the ground there would be no argument - The parent obviously cannot manage the responsibility of looking after that child. It was an assault, plain and simple. Did that assault lead to manslaughter? I would say yes - under the egg shell skull principle (google it).
I would never put myself in such a position partaking in such an event to begin with Nexxo. Now, the man was drunk and drunken people act and behaves in various ways, but there was no need for them to beat him, none what so ever. Heck, they could have cuffed him, drive him to a cell and let him sober up, blimey; they could even have driven him home. The Police are provocative themselves, the public (people at those events) view them as an extension of the state rather than people there to HELP them, this needs to be understood. And the way the Police act does NOT work in their favour or in the public’s favour at all, it only serves to enforce the view amongst those partaking in any protests and this sad event doesn't help any either. Sure, there are those anarchists doing what they can to rile people up and create mayhem, that is why they partake and the only reason why they are there to begin with. But the Police edit that out and treat everyone pretty much the same, cornering people and pushing them, of course they will react. Now this doesn’t suggest that tossing bear bottles, taunting the Police and such is OK, or that it solves anything, of course not, but the vast majority do NOT do those kinds of things. However, it gives the Police the perfect “excuse” for acting like idiots, and they do just that more often than none. The man was not in a position to either hurt them or challenge them in any way which could have jeopardized any Police officer…none.
