The issue I see with immigration, is, if your immigrating to a country, then your leaving your own country for something you believe is better, If you move yet refuse to adapt to your new location, its not my problem, and you should not get any special treatment whatsoever. If your in the U.K. or the U.S for example, speak english, its the official language, if you immigrate and you cant speak english, well tough luck, your not getting any breaks. The whole immigration situation is disgusting, what it is, is pc politicians trying to suck up to everyone, yet pleasing no one. My best friend growing up moved here from korea with his mother when he was 5, They both spoke excellent english, they didnt demand for anything just because they were a "minority". I've talked to his mother since then(btw still hot as hell ) About this very subject and she put it quite simply, she moved to be an american, she didnt move to be a korean in a foreign country, which is what most immigrants try to be these days. And there is quite a difference there. Long story short, if you immigrate, then immigrate, I'm not saying leave your culture behind, but your immigrating to a new culture, if you dont like it, dont immigrate. End of story. I wont touch on the religious stuff going on here, because its basically the same thing, moores are different in every country, If you dont like those in the country you immigrated to, you shouldnt have immigrated there in the first place. As for banning burkas, its a joke, that, when it comes right down to it, is taking away someones rights. And like someone else said in this thread, what, 200 people in france habitually wear burkas? It would be one thing if half a million people started walking around wearing ski masks. As for muslims being integrated into france, not really, its more along the lines of france bending over backwards to accomodate them, they didnt integrate, a space was made for them, and there is a difference. Anyway sorry for the rant, but as the U.S has a lot of illegals, that no one does anything about, that infringe on the type of work that I do, I tend to get annoyed about it. Noob
No offence meant, Noob, but your illegal immigrants are generally dirt-poor, uneducated, illiterate people who don't even speak any English. Some of them barely have shoes. If you have to feel threatened in your employment prospects by them you should feel embarrassed, not resentful. People immigrate to try and build a better life for themselves. They are often only too happy to integrate if the locals will let them. But there is also homesickness so they'd like to hang onto a bit of their culture. If the locals look down on them as inferior foreigners and don't allow them to integrate, they will use their cultural identity and habits as a source of self esteem instead.
Not having cultural integration is fine, as long as one culture does not infringe upon the rights of the other cultures, and does not create violence or hate towards other cultures, and obeys the laws of the land. I don't care if they want to retain their language or customs. I do have a problem if they expect different or preferential legal treatment. For instance, a hotly contested issue is Sharia law. There is ONE set of laws in the US, and those are the laws determined by duly elected Congress of the US. There is ONE set of laws in the UK, and those are the laws determined by the Queen and Parliament. If you want to live in said country, you follow those secular laws even where they conflict with your religion, or GTFO. That's not up for debate. I don't care what your savior or holy prophet or flying spaghetti monster said a thousand years ago, the only laws that can be enforced in most Western countries are the secular laws determined by the governing body, which treat every citizen equally, regardless of race or religion. If your holy scrolls state that you can stone a person to death for adultery, well ain't that just too bad, put your rocks back in the ground and phone up a divorce lawyer, who will do the same thing except with money instead of rocks. The newest group of immigrants is always percieved as threatening the normal way of life, but things have a way of working out in the end. You think the oldschool WASPs who had been in the US back when it was still a British colony were happy when boatloads of poor and starving Irish and Italian Catholic immigrants started showing up in the late 1800s? I grew up just outside of Philadelphia, and live just outside of NYC. In the NYC greater metropolitan area, there are a huge amount of Italians who haven't fully embraced American culture, even after more than a century. I see Italian flags flying alongside American flags. I meet many people who are fluent in Italian. I see some people who don't know much english at all. It's not a bad thing. Most of these people are peaceful, law-abiding citizens who want to be treated equally under the law. I can walk down the streets of Little Italy or Chinatown or any number of strongly ethnic NYC neighborhoods, and I don't feel like I am in danger, or that people want to attack me for being in 'their' territory. There are some parts of Chinatown where there is nothing in English, every sign on every storefront just has the big Chinese characters. Do I care that they don't speak English very well? No. They are retaining their culture, but incorporating aspects of our culture in a way that can be beneficial to everyone. I've never experienced any hostility from being in another cultural neighborhood. The issue isn't Muslims keeping Muslim culture. The issue is ANY culture harboring hostility towards another, and the issue is ANY culture trying to impose its religious ideals on another that doesn't want it. The Ten Commandments have no legal influence in the United States, because we have a secular government (although there are a bunch of idiots who want the US government to be Christian). Sharia law doesn't mean **** either, and that's the way it should say.
To be clear, the United States has no official language. Being a nation of immigrants, built by immigrants, I believe there is a very good reason we don't have an official language. I also want to point out the irony in your rant. For someone who is complaining about illegal immigrants not speaking English, you have a surprisingly poor grasp of basic grammar. Perhaps we should reserve the good jobs for people who not only speak English, but can demonstrate college-level writing skills as well.
I'm a floor super for a manufacturing company, its not exactly unskilled labor, as for illegal immigrants in the us being uneducated and illiterate, not in what I do their not, yeah maybe the ones that mow peoples lawns are, and even then, most of em are not as you described(did that for awhile at 18) but alot of em get into manufacturing, which requires reading, writing and all that good stuff , but that is beside the point, their illegal to begin with. They shouldnt be able to get work here, yet they do, and they get all the perks of U.S citizenship, Ie drivers license, welfare, everything, yet their illegal immigrants. So If Im understanding you nexxo, because I work in a good job sector, and make good money, I should be embarrassed that illegals are taking over that job sector? Thats just plain insulting, either your implying yourself that I have no skills, and I'm illiterate, dirty and uneducated, as you call your immigrants, or you in the end dont know what your talking about in this case. Noob also, as for demonstrating poor english skills, this is a forum, If I was writing a book I'd pay more attention, but I'm not. As for the irony.... well, If you move to america, and you cant speak english, and you expect service in whatever category.... With wiki saying 96% of people in the U.S speak it very well, making it the de facto language. So yes, while theres no federal level official language, close enough I'd say.
Getting back to a point I raised on page 1: Why do people feel threatened by Muslims covering their faces? We have had people here claim that doing so poses a security threat, that's bollocks to be honest. 1: Any suicide bomber would not want to draw attention to themselves, and would want to blend into their environment, for fear of being caught before they got their shot at martyrdom. 2: In the case of passport control etc. women have to show their faces anyway, that's as the law is now. So how is this a threat to national security? Next, we have had the "they are forced to wear them, so banning them would be doing them a favour" argument. I know that some women are forced into wearing them, by husbands or other family members etc. but I believe this is a minority of those who do wear burqas. Just because they don't fit into our idea of what people should wear does not mean that someone must have been forced into wearing them. On the topic of immigration, I think there should be stricter criteria for economic immigrants. There should be more rigorous counting in/out of all legal immigrants too, because it's just too easy to disappear off the radar here in the UK, and our government has not got a clue how many legal short time immigrants decided to overstay their welcome, and become illegal immigrants. Regards asylum seekers, we have a moral duty to offer safe harbour to those facing persecution in their home countries, but we need to become more efficient in processing those who abuse the asylum system. Those who have been refused asylum should be held in secure units, until their deportation, because many are released on license, and just fall through the cracks.
Just a quick point about Sharia law So what kind of Sharia are we talking about in the UK? The key issues are family law, finance and business. In practice many Muslims do turn to Sharia guidance for many of these day-to-day matters, particularly family disputes.
The thing that bugs me is pretty simple. In a social environment, I like to be able to see people's faces. Nothing more than that. I'm not in fear, afraid or think they might blow me up. It just makes me uncomfortable having ninjas near me.
If you can see them, then they aren't ninjas - they're decoys. The real ninjas hide in plain sight without masks.
I think that you misunderstand Sharia law: Totally agree, which is why we should not try to impose our views on the burka on Muslim culture, or feel so paranoid about it. And dude, Christianity has massive influence in the United States, right up to government. G.W. Bush emphasised that his was a nation based on Christian values.
They are there because they find work. They find work because they are cheap, hard-working labour. They are good for the US economy. No supply without demand. And no, the perks are a myth. And a driver's licence is not a perk. You pay for tuition, you pass a test. Then you have to pay for a car and pay the fuel. If an illegal immigrant can manage to find work in the US, and earn enough to look after a family and even afford a car, then perhaps in the good ol' American spirit of free enterprise they deserve to be there. No, I think you should be embarrassed because you view illegals as a threat to your job. I don't see any doctors or architects or skilled plumbers or electrical engineers whining about how illegal immigrants are stealing their jobs. If you worry that an immigrant may take yours, it is time to start thinking about career progression. You have a serious head start on them --if they can overtake you, you are being complacent. Still you'd know your 'their' from your 'they're'. Even on a forum it is good to write in clear, grammatically correct English. The language you use determines how you think. It is a form of mental discipline.
just saw this news here http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/21/arab-guilty-rape-consensual-sex-jew might be a whole other topic to discuss though
Oh and by the way, the laws of Western countries are pretty much the ten commandments so our laws have derived from the Bible. If it wasn't for Christianity, our laws would be very different in my opinion. At the very least, regardless of whether you believe in Christ or not, the religion gave our society a good grounding in morality and law that has exisited to this day.
Actually Pagan laws were pretty sophisticated and civilised by our current standards. The Ten Commandments are just basic rules for keeping an ordered society which are not unique to the Bible; every culture has those same rules in some shape or form. Religion has that function too, as a framework within which such rules are justified and maintained but it is not essential.
Well if your going to talk about pagan laws, you were allowed to enact revenge on people that had slighted you in Rome for example. Some religions and hence countries that adopt their teachings still allow things like this. Such as honour killings being allowed in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc. I'd say our legal system and laws track the 10 commandments and teachings of Jesus more than any other teachings. Previously, religion was used to control people and prevent chaos. Now because in general people have a strong moral compass that came from generations of religious teachings, it doesn't matter whether you are Christian, you already know right from wrong. In my opinion, without Christianity, our society would still be a case of 'survival of the fittest'.
That's a real chicken and egg scenario though. Before the ten commandments i'm sure, killing stealing, rape and coveting your neighbours ass wasn't acceptable social etiquette. My feelings on religion are it served two prime functions. One it helped to explain things we did not understand. Two it helped to control the population before you had a effective police force and the fear of the invisible being who see's everything and will exact a punishment on you when your dead helped to mitigate the "survival of the fittest". Its very convenient that you get punished or rewarded when your dead as dead people don't come back to tell you if its true or not. The belief that without religion you can not have a strong sense of morals is the main thing that annoys me about religion. Its like apple claiming they invented the shuffle feature.
