Which mass show of remembrance did they intrude on exactly? Or are you claiming the entire country as one mass show?
Well, you started your argument by saying that what offended you was how they were attacking the dead, and on Remembrance Day, no less. You also said that they may or may not have a point to make but you were not focusing on that; you were focusing on how unacceptably they were doing it. Now your opinion has devolved to dismissing them as scum who "are not making a point. They are just spouting hate against the White British as a whole (not just our soldiers)". Arguably that is the same as what they are doing: reducing the whole issue to "They are just scum who hate us".
WANT NO FURTHER PART IN THIS DISCUSSION, WASTE OF TIME AND EFFORT - ASKED MODS TO DELETE MY ACCOUNT - STILL WAITING
WANT NO FURTHER PART IN THIS DISCUSSION, WASTE OF TIME AND EFFORT - ASKED MODS TO DELETE MY ACCOUNT - STILL WAITING
Here you are getting riled up because a few dozen people protested on a street corner in London somewhere. Meanwhile in Afghanistan... Meanwhile in Iraq... Seriously. I try to be respectful of your personal loss but to argue that what these protesters did is such a great affront to your nation only reveals us to be the self-indulgent, self-righteous and self-centered Westerners they accuse us of being. Perspective: get some.
WANT NO FURTHER PART IN THIS DISCUSSION, WASTE OF TIME AND EFFORT - ASKED MODS TO DELETE MY ACCOUNT - STILL WAITING
@KayinBlack Exquisitely well put - have some rep! Is referring to other human beings as scum not in a similar vein? We must try to utilise all the humanity we can muster, if we are to ever stand a chance of breaking the endless cycles of violence and hatred.
I'm sorry but that's just bollocks. While people from all over the country may unite and share the same sentiment it doesn't mean that noone in the country is allowed to hold or express a different view nor does it make every single part of the country part of the event. Frankly I have to agree with Nexxo's view that getting so worked up about a group of malcontents protesting on a street corner nowhere near any commemorative services just shows us up as the very things they believe us to be.
I'm really sorry to hear about your loss - it must have been hard on you. I haven't experienced that and I'm sure I can't even imagine what that is like. I think the protesters are wrongfully directing their anger at the well-meaning serving men and women when the "stupidity of why we lost them" is usually on the part of governments and their agents.
I served from 1987 to 1995. In 1995 I was medically discharged after being shot 3 times, I was in a country where we were trying to stop the continuing genocide of Muslims. I am pleased to report that we did. I'm proud of what I have done, I will defend my actions, I will not tolerate keyboard warriors defending the actions of a group of individuals who seem to think that burning poppies is in any way shape or form acceptable. I will also not accept the inaction of the police who seemed to be too busy picking their arses rather than arresting people who were inciting racial hatred. Wars will always happen, they are always started by politicians, the military has to go and clean up the mess. The men and women who are killed doing this, preserving a way of life that our forefathers fought and died for are worthy of respect. Some of the funniest, most compassionate, caring and most intelligent people I have ever met have served in the armed forces. The best of them aren't around any more. I will not accept the Americans who bleat on about the war on terror after they allowed NORAID to exist and fund the IRA (have a look at the start of my post and think about it). On the flip side of that the Americans I have been lucky enough to serve along side have been professionals and people I will gladly call my friends. The same holds true for the French, German, Dutch, Italian, Spanish and Canadians. Nexxo you're a mod, behave like one StuartGB If we ever meet I will buy you beer. After all the pathetic comments and bile in this thread, please delete my account, I couldn’t stomach coming back here again. Mark
I have read through most of this thread, and I do not want to get into a debate with anyone. In my opinion free speech is one of the many things about this country that make it great. I am pleased that we are able to allow people in for a better quality of life. I have never served for my country but I have the utmost respect for those that have, I like 11 O'Clock on the 11th of November, it is a time for me to take a small amount of my time to remember. It is an important reminder to everyone about the sacrifice that has been made by soldiers through the ages. In my opinion no amount of protesting, as disgusting and reprehensible as I find it, is going to stop me from remembering the fallen. The only way that war will stop is if the world unites, and boundaries and borders are removed, and a global government is formed, that way the population can be better spread, with geographic locations being better used for other things, farming, fishing, wind power, hydro, solar etc. Only then will this stop, and the unnecessary loss of life from everyone will come to an end.
Do you think an Afghan child would feel differently if they found themselves in the same situation you found yourself when you were 10? An Iraqi? Israeli? Palestinian? Irish? Bosnian? Do you think none of those kids will ever hear the way westerners refer to their dead fathers - terrorists, extremists, murderers, nutjobs, ragheads, scumbags? Some of these terms are nearing ubiquity in the worldwide media and in western societies. It is horrible that many British people who have lost loved ones will turn on the TV to hear the protesters refer to their lost one in the manner they do. Is it not equally horrible that an Iraqi person will hear similar smears on a daily basis through the western media? In short, why is it worse for a British orphan to hear their dad referred to as a murderer etc. than it is for an Afghani orphan to hear their dad referred to as a terrorist etc.?
People take all this to personally. Leaving the forum because you don't like one discussion kind of makes the point. Some people are so entenched in thier views that there can bo no movement. No merest hint that rightly or wrongly there is an opposing argument can't be accepted. I agree with voltaire "I disagree strongly with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." We all now know both sides of the argument. There is no right or wrong here becasue the standard by which it is being judged has to strongly opposing views. But, IMO Unless folks have the abillity to try and at least understand and and consider another person viewpoint, there is no point trying to have a rational discusion. Peoples feelings and opinions are based on their experiences, these drive our emotions. If we can't accept that people having different experiences will have different (but thefore understandable when taken with the hindsight of thier experinces) than the discussion will never have a ultimate destination
Between the two of you, you have got the crux of my argument. In no wise did I believe that stuart should give up his feelings-only that the other side may (and well does) feel the same. I'm not denying your pain. It's not mine, I can't feel it, but I can see its effects on your actions. I understand something of it. I lost my mother when I was 10, and though she ended her life by her own hand, I've lived for years with people calling her every name in the book. When I was older, I found out the reason that she died was that she was mentally ill and her family refused to help her. It was seen as a blot on the family name. Go figure. So I understand just a part of that pain. However, no words said can take from you the memories you have of your father, nor can they change the fact that he has been and will continue to be a hero to you and many others. While they are words of hate, they are in many cases the hate of a mother for her son's killer. That's not all of it, I know, and there's more there, but somewhere across that fence is a person who feels just the same as you. Edit: you posted while I was typing this out, if it deals with something you clarified please disregard. Some of us have lived enough to know we don't know much. On the other hand, I still consider it laudable that you have pride in your country enough to defend her. Too few people have a strong sense of national pride. But, just as it's a good thing to be proud of one's country, being too proud to attempt to reconcile with others can be a fault. I'm not saying you are-I think your issue is directly related to the experiences you have had, and as such is certainly understandable-but it's something to always keep in the back of one's mind. Do I think that people inciting hate should be locked up? If you plot to cause harm to others or disrupt lives in a violent way, put you somewhere safe and watched, no matter the color of your skin or the creed you espouse. However, if you're burning effigies, that's still protected speech. It's only been about a week, surely you guys haven't forgotten Guy Fawkes' day? I do believe he's still burned in effigy, and he gave his life attempting to force religious tolerance (what a concept.) I'm all for equality there. Stuart, even though I may sometimes disagree with how you put it or a particular stance of yours, I respect the fact that you are still willing to fight for your beliefs. But while others may protest the remembrance of British fallen heroes, they simply expose themselves for what they are in doing so. All the protestation in the world cannot remove the fact of your father-cannot remove a single line from the book of his life. They can be rude, cruel, and hateful, but the truth of your father cannot be altered. In fact, because of their actions, I've learned of other men and women that I should be thankful for-the very point of the day of remembrance. I don't drink, but should I ever make it over there, I'll certainly buy you a pint.
Sorry, Stuart, I didn't mean to accuse you of anything. I know you have not said this. It was a genuine question meant to point out that we don't bat an eyelid when the media frequently refers to people on the other side of the conflict as evil extremist murdering terrorists and we think nothing of calling those people scumbags and various other names, but we take massive offence when a ragtag group of protesters happen to do the same to us. You are a human being and therefore capable of empathy. You are probably better able to empathise with Iraqi orphans than most, despite the cultural differences. Therefore, I am sure you have some inkling of how these children might feel. You are able to relate to their grief and you can probably imagine what they are likely to feel when confronted with the western view of their loved ones.
