E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

See now you’re making assumptions again Corky. For your info, I make a point of saying hello to anyone I pass on the street here, I always have. I believe a smile and a warm greeting go a long way.

We would have welcomed any members to any of our community meetings, activities and events. I knew that this could be an intimidating prospect though as did the council and police. So they suggested some closed meetings, myself and a senior council official with one or two members of the Roma community. Just to act as an ice breaker and get communication going. Then to try and build on that, build some trust and see where it took us. The council wanted that to progress to some sporting events, such as football matches etc. Baby steps all the way and I supported that and got involved.

I was part of that process because I believed it could work, but when there is an empty seat or two in the room, what else could we have done? We extended the olive branch and tried to get dialogue going, there was no-one willing to receive the branch and get working together in partnership. It didn’t work because the Roma are an insular community. They show no interest in engaging with the wider community, that is their choice, stop trying to blame anyone else for that, the blame lies with them. Whether it be a lack of trust or just their culture, that is what we were up against. Again you are trying to play the blame game Corky and yes I do get defensive about that. Let’s not play silly buggers.

This is what I mean about you apportioning blame all the time. You refuse to even consider the fact that maybe the Roma community as a whole just didn't want to engage. Lord knows there were plenty of options open and opportunities available to them.

To be fair, I got fed up with it all. I got sick of people making excuses and attributing blame, people who had never even stepped foot in our community or bothered to listen to anyone else’s opinions other than their own. I got sick of trying to appease people who clearly showed a lack of interest in working with the wider community on problems we all faced here. I got sick of the council and police claiming hollow victories and blowing their own trumpets on how successful they were here. So I stepped back, I’ll move when I can, another person forced out of their own community through no fault of their own.

As for your analogy about if I moved to Spain and was invited to a community meeting regarding issues we ALL faced as a community, I’d have been flattered to have been asked. I’d have happily attended to discuss how I could get involved in addressing issues. Not a single hesitation.

I’ve lived abroad and been seen as a problem group before, the British Army and their families weren’t exactly popular in some places in Germany in the 70’s & early 80’s. So I saw people striking out and bridging any differences they had before they had a chance to fester, open days, shared experiences etc. etc. It takes willingness on both sides to work though. Something you’re not being fair on here Corky.

 

I'm not making assumptions, I'm basing what I've said of the information you've provided, honestly the levels of aggression pouring out from your posts is getting a little tiring, either you're here to have a sensible discussion or you're here to throw insults and accuse people of things they didn't do, make up your mind.

There's a world of difference between saying hello and being friendly to talking to someone you have an issue with about said issue and asking them to stop.

Before you throw another accusation at me for what I'm about to say is not me denying that you did, it's not me accusing you of not trying hard enough, it's not me apportioning blame, passing judgment or any other negative label you care to give it.

Having got that out of the way what you describe has exactly the same issue of group think, it's them versus us, our community versus theirs, you bad us good, we have authority on our side so your wrong we're right, without probably even realizing it you caused their guard to go up and forced them into a defensive position.

Instead of seeing the issues as the issues caused by a bad person you inadvertently sent a signal that you (again not you personally) see 'them' as the problem and not a person as the problem, you don't solve cultural or any differences for that matter at a group level, you solve them at a personally level, by talking one on one.

And believing it would work is admirable but i can tell you from past experience that it rarely works, at least not in the way you were probably hoping, it does more to make the people involved feel better (authorities ticking boxes) than actual solve the issue and before you go off on one that's not a sleigh dig at you, your community or the efforts you put in.

And I'm not blaming anyone else for that despite your constant claims that i am, honestly i couldn't care less what happens in your community, keep banging your head against a wall for all i care. As I've said I'm simply giving my opinion on what you've described many, many times.

Put it this way during the days of Windrush how do you think communities down south handled the influx of Afro Caribbeans? People tried putting up signs saying no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. People organised community meetings. They were even some who were polite and said hello to black people they meet on the street. And yet none of what they tried helped to alleviate the tensions, it wasn't until people from each community started talking to each other as individuals and started to discover that, you know what, these people ain't so different.

It wasn't until individuals got involved that the defensive barriers that were naturally erected by a strange community living in a strange place started to come down.

Jesus will you give it a rest, I'm not apportioning blame. Like i said if it wasn't for you constantly posting about these issues i wouldn't give two hoots. I'm trying to explain to you where IMO the stumbling blocks were (are?), I'm trying to get you to see and hopefully move on from constantly viewing things from a us versus them perspective, to see that it's not a black & white issue, that no ones wrong or right and that no one's attributing blame.

You may have done that but you're next sentence suggests others wouldn't, "I saw people striking out and bridging any differences they had before they had a chance to fester" my emphasis to highlight how it's people striking out that resolves issues.

Yes it take willingness on both sides but how would you react if you were a strange in a strange land, if you didn't know how people would react to you, if you didn't have the army most likely telling soldiers to make themselves approachable, to win over hearts and minds by reaching out to people in the community they live in.

These Roma don't have hundreds of years of knowledge from the British army telling them to overcome their fears and reach out to people, they're doing what all strangers in strange lands do and gathering in groups, putting up barriers, and defending themselves.

EDIT: Even though my last thought experiment didn't get an answer I've got a couple more that i hope illustrate what I'm trying to say.

• The first one I've already asked.....If two tribes keep meeting each other in a jungle a few thousand years ago what do you think the result would be? If one person from each tribe keep meeting each other what would be the result?

Does the former or later have a greater chance of going to war?

• Second one: If 200 people from NI moved into your town and behaved in exactly the same way you say these Roma have is the CTA to blame?

• Lastly: If one family moved into your neighborhood and their dad behaved in the same manner is the family to blame?

 

Bang goes the Brexit mob's 'Food will be cheaper' argument... As does 'no tarrifs on imports'...

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In other news, water is wet.

 

Chris Grayling has been unable to ascertain the religious leanings of The Pope however...

 

Just wondering, are you going to close this thread and make a new one after Brexit

 

Could just amend the title:

'E.U.: Left or should have stayed? Your thoughts.'

 

Looks like the Brexodus is picking up pace...

And...

I guess that's part of wanting English laws being decided on in English courts, by English judges. Or is this not the right type of control.

 

Rat will be a delicacy. I'm thinking more along the lines of:



By the people, for the people, made of... er...

 

And along with it the supposed promise land of a comprehensive deal with the US:

and of course:

And all that because preparations are all going "excellently" on both sides of the border:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-tariffs-in-case-of-no-deal-michael-gove-says

And while it doesn't mention the obvious implications for elsewhere I will...

With Gove finally admitting that border inspection posts will be required that really puts the always impossible promise of May to have no physical border in Ireland six feet under.

Does anyone want to buy the UK government some books about "conditions" at the Irish border in the 80s?

 

TBH Had Gove not actually admitted/confirmed the above, the NFU probably would've lynched him.

 

Yeah right, the Toyota plant in France wouldn't have mattered to them. Ridiculous.

 

FTFY .

Although it would be a good idea if we only bought the pop-up variety.

 

Toyota has plants in Burnaston, UK; Kolin, Czech Republic; Ovar, Portugal and Valenciennes, France (and Sakarya, Turkey). I suspect that EU negotiators have either safeguarded their EU plants in the deal, or have judged that their sacrifice is worth the increased access to the Japanese market. You may have noticed over the last two years that they are rather good at their job...

Nissan in partnership with Renault has plants in Avila, Barcelona and Palencia, Spain; Batilly, Douai, Dieppe, Flins, Maubeuge and Sandouville, France; Novo Mesto, Slovenia; Pitesti, Romania and Sunderland, UK (and Bursa, Turkey). It is unlikely that Nissan will completely pull out of the EU given its partnership with Renault. Not rating Sunderland's chances though.

And as usual the abdication of responsibility is strong with Leavers:

That would be when the government campaigned to remain in the EU, guys! But nooo, you knew better and voted Leave...

...and expected the government to enact the will of the people.

Some more examples of the thought that has gone into the vote:

So he is not blaming his vote for Brexit, but the fact that the government is a bit preoccupied trying to deal with the consequences of his vote. Righty.

And of course it will have consequences far beyond the plant:

I wonder what restaurant can be so sanguine about losing 50% of its customers... I think she may be in for a surprise too.

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As a sidenote Honda are also closing their Turkey plant.

 

Has that been confirmed by Honda themselves as I'm reading conflicting reports, on the one hand some are saying it's closing the Turkey plant and on the other that it's ending production of the Civic and restructuring with a view to electric production.

EDIT: Never mind, i found the announcement of Honda's site and they say "The company will cease manufacturing current Civic sedan model in 2021 and intends to continue its business operations. Honda Turkiye A.S. will continue to hold constructive dialogue with Turkish stakeholders during this period."

What intends to continue business operation mean is anyone guess i suppose.

 

The Turkey plant is staying open for now. No doubt it will be wound down in the future.

Yeah, that moment when Erdogan's Turkey seems a safer business proposition than Brexit Britain...

 

Honda's UK plant is staying open 'for now', until 2021 like the Turkey plant.

 

3 Tories defect to the new Independent Group (still don't know who fund them, they're a limited company as far as I understand).

So 3 remainers leave the Tory party, ERG will have a louder voice in TM's ear now. Oh dear.