E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

My point is that the EU-Japan deal makes it less vital to have EU-based plants. Add obstacles to that like Brexit, and UK plants turn from "less vital" to "outright liability". So of course those plants will be closed first, and sooner.

Japan has always embraced the practice of having some factories in the countries they have trade deals with, if only to show commitment to the relationship (and with Brexit, it views the UK as having reneged on its side of this commitment). It's a Japanese thing: who you do business with, and how, is as important as the business itself (much like in the rest of Asian and Middle Eastern culture. In the West we tend to look more at the bottom line). So Japan may keep some EU plants out of goodwill --as long as they don't become liabilities.

Honda, and for that matter other Japanese plants are never going to openly admit that Brexit is a factor. They remember the 2012 riots in China, when in a wave of anti-Japanese sentiment people went out and smashed Japanese-owned companies, shops and cars. Honda will still have a plant here for the next two years --it doesn't want strikes and riots on its hands. It doesn't want to become part of the toxic political debate that is Brexit. It just wants to quietly pack its bags and leave. So do the 250 other companies that have been quietly moving to the EU over the last year, that you don't even know about (but I do, because many are moving to the Netherlands).

Put it another way. I'm vocal about Brexit on this forum in a little private corner of the internet, where I am anonymous. But do you think that I proclaim my feelings about Brexit and my intention to leave publicly? At work, or in the street? When **** hits the fan after Brexit day, do you think I'll be going around saying "I told you so"? Hell no. IRL I'm keeping my head down, voicing no opinion at all, quietly working on my own exit plan. Many companies are doing the same.

 

You kids and your professionalism.

As soon as it became an option for me to leave pre-Brexit, I had no qualms about telling anyone who asked. Or, in fact, when prompted saying I thought brexit was a terribly stupid thing to do.

But I suppose it's different working in the NHS to the private sector.

 

Not just professionalism (I'm NHS above all), but also self-preservation. I'm not intending to become the convenient focus of any Brexirage when things start turning to ****. It's different when you're a Brit, but I'm just a furriner, hence an identifiable target.

When I've left and am safely back in Terra Unionem Europaeam, I may voice my opinion, but I will probably be too busy getting on with my life by then.

 

I'm not sure, were I a foreigner, I'd be able to contain my "Oh, you dumb ****s.." thinking to just forums/at home. But then, I suppose I've not really had the same experiences as you, or other immigrants, would have.

 

So you say Honda are lying about it not being about Brexit. Why? Haven't noticed other companies feeling they can't blame Brexit for unpopular decisions.

 

Really? How did it work out for Airbus? Tory MP was ready to go to war with them.

Other, smaller companies have reported hate mail, death threats and threats of boycotts when they voiced their opinion. Like I said: the debate is toxic. Believe what you want to believe. Fact is, companies are leaving, they're just not making a song and dance about it.

 

It's too cold up here. We normally need unseasonably hot weather and events for a serious effort at rioting.

 

Darn right they're lying, just over a year ago they said

And that...

 

That's OK. The burning buildings will keep the rioters warm.

 

Good point. Everyone remember to add marshmallows to their stockpiling kit, we may as well have some fun if everything is burning around us.

 

"We've got provisions and lots of beer;
We've got the right spirit for the new frontier..."

--Donald Fagen: New Frontier

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1985649951741910

 

Dr Fox apparently says the Japan arrangements won't be in place in time. Really? Thought that was Project Fear.

At least the, one of countless, hapless daydreamers has Switzerland, Chile, the Faroe Islands, Eastern and Southern Africa, Israel and the Palestinian Authority continuity agreements in place.

Yay, Faroes Islands, everything will be fine!

 

Yep, predictably Japan wants a deal that is more favourable to them than the one it has with the EU since the UK is much smaller than the EU and as such Japan will be wearing the big boy pants in the negotiations.

And that is before we even get to the other issue...
Those negotiations won't necessarily be top priority for the government of Japan as there are some stories coming from there that they view the incompetence of Fox and his ilk as offensive rather than entertaining.

 

South Korea has said the same: it doesn't want to roll over the EU deal but renegotiate as well. I assume Singapore will want to do the same.

 

The question is why would anyone not?

 

As do I, as do I.

 

In Japan, seniority is carefully matched. If you send a delegate of a certain rank to a business meeting, you expect them to be received by a someone of the same rank. If you send a team of ranks, the other side receives them with a team of exactly the same number and rank. This is all to do with the complexities of respect for seniority and rank. A complex dance ensues with matching juniors doing the introductions and opening the conversation, the matching seniors then stepping in and talking to each other about the very important stuff, and then handing over the finishing of details and completing the conversation to their respective juniors again.

To send, or be received by someone of junior rank is an insult --it implies that you are not important enough to be seen by someone of higher rank; that your actual ranking is disrespected. To be seen by someone of superior rank is pretty much the greatest professional compliment and honour that can be bestowed upon you and you respond by being super respectful, demonstrating awareness of their superior rank and their generosity in spending their valuable time on a junior rank like yourself.

For the UK to send delegates who are clearly not in command of their brief, and repeatedly fail to bring along the technical experts required to take negotiations forward is pretty much an insult. It's like the UK sent a bunch of juniors or incompetents because Japan is not important enough to send their A team --or at least to put in an A game.

On top of that, to then send the Japanese team a letter urging haste to get the deal sealed is interpreted as a veiled suggestion that it is the Japanese team that is to blame for lack of progress; that they are somehow not working hard enough or competent enough. It doubles down on the implied insult of sending a poor team: you see? You clearly aren't good enough to deserve our A team.

Add to this the cultural historic context of perceived White Western colonial arrogance, and it's a triple whammy of insult upon insult upon insult.

What surprises me (but shouldn't) is that the UK foreign office doesn't appear to have any experts on Japanese culture to advise them. Or if they do, they are clearly ignored --which to Japan would be another insult. You're so unimportant that we don't even bother with understanding and respecting your ways.

 

They shouldn't take insult, I mean we have a Foreign Minister who isn't even an expert on knowing the nationality of his own wife.

They should realise that if we send delegates over who know how to tie their own shoelaces we really are sending our A-team.

 

Yeah, that's the other worry: the Japanese realising that this is the UK's peak competence. In which case they will send their juniors to match, and get them to play the stalling game until the UK is really desperate for that deal. After all, Japan has all the time in the world --it's not exactly hard up for a deal with the UK outside of the EU-- and if it waits until the UK is feeling the effects of a no-deal Brexit good and proper it will be in an even stronger position.

Nobody is going to deal with the UK now until at least 2020.