Like I said, I don't know the solution; I just know that shooting 'suspects' and accepting the death of an occasional innocent citizen to squelch terrorism is wrong. The prospect of murder for the 'greater good' should never be tolerated, condoned, or accepted no matter what the circumstances are.
By "coming to terms with it" does not mean accepting it --just acknowledging that this bad thing happened for no good reason. Particularly for no good reason. I am somewhat disturbed to see people falling over themselves to rationalise this tragedy --particularly Jack Straw ("Sorry 'bout that, but this is necessary"), because hey, there's terrorists about. It is no different from rationalising civilian deaths as "unavoidable" or "collateral damage" in a war (hang on, isn't that what people did with the war in Iraq?...). The end does not justify the means. Terrorists have one main objective: to create terror. In that respect they must be cheering "bullseye!" right now as police-state methods start to become the expected, rationalised norm in dealing with this situation. That's the problem with terrorists: they invite you into some sick game of cat and mouse, and once you join in ("Hey, let's wage War On Terror!") soon you get so caught up in the chase that soon the difference between who is cat and who is mouse becomes very blurry indeed. Let's not become either. Let's stay human beings.
This is a horrible, horrible tragedy; this poor innocent man was killed. But let’s not forget the circumstances which led to his death. London had become under attack, last week over 50 people were killed by suicide bombers, again a week later 4 bombs were set of, but fortunately they didn't explode. 4 bombers were on the loose probably still in the country and maybe in the London area. The police were commissioned to prevent further attacks and if possible capture the bombers. The police had a block of flats under surveillance in which a man left walking towards a tube station, when he entered he was apparently ordered to stop by armed cops, he didn't, instead of stopping he ran toward a train (probably the worst move he could have made, running away from armed police towards an underground train, in the same week as 8 bombs have been planted on underground trains and busses) He may have been Brazilian, but he had lived here for over 2 years and worked as an electrician, he could obviously speak the language and would have been fully aware of the ongoing situation in London. Taking things into context you can understand a little more how it happened, I'm not excusing the death of an innocent, but understanding how it happened. So enough of the conspiracy theories please, the police have not been waiting for an excuse to go about killing people, they are doing a difficult enough job. The only people to blame are those who planted the bombs, no one else.
he was here illegally, BBC were sugesting thats why he ran. when you break the law, and start to disobey society, you risk been injured. He was a moron to panic and run, jump a ticket gate, and try to get to a train (which is what a bomber that wanted to carry out his act would do). Anyone who says you wouldn't of shoot someone under that circumstance, whilst having shoot the head to kill orders, is either a coward or retardard(/socalist).
the news says he was working here legally they were told to shoot someone in the head if it they were about to detonate a bomb. not to just shoot everyone in the head. imagine if someone pulls a gun on you on the tube and tells you to stop. youd all probably think HE was the terrorist trying to take you hostage, rather think of the obscure possibility that he is an undercover cop that has mistakenly identified you. better yet, what would you do if it was your brother, or your dad that had been shot. and any coward can pull a trigger, it takes more courage not to pull the trigger.
not when your inteligant it dosen't the officers in question know they'll automatically be suspended. Now its not as if they didn't identify clearly that they were ARMED POLICE. He jumped a ticket barrier. The guy's been here long enough to learn what police means. Judging by his friends reactions (who all seamed to gloss over the fact he was a cancer on socity not paying any tax) they all claim he spoke good english. He lept over a ticket barrier, ignored their declaration, he deserves to be shot. The Beeb we're speculating that he ran because he was here illegally. Now he took a calculated risk, be it in panic or what ever, that's his fault. The police did something very brave, they could of not followed him. They could of "lost" him in the panic of the situation, instead they chased someone, who they belived to be about to blow himself up, and ended his life. Those are not easy things to do and take a lot of courage. I assure you it takes a specail type of coward to do something like that. Were as the courage you must need to sit at the top of the station, whilst he's running over hte ticket barrier towards an assumed crowded train. If thats your idea of bravery go join the french.
I'm not talking about conspiracy theories. I am talking about the threat of construing our relationship with terrorists in the way that the terrorists want us to. If we play their game, we will lose, because they are setting the rules. So we (in this case, including the police and government) have to be really careful about walking that fine line between vigilance and witch hunt. Edit: This just in: the coroner's report shows that the victim was shot eight times while he was lying on the floor. Either at least 3-4 people had a pop at him or (more likely) someone emptied a whole clip into him in a moment of Gung-Ho. I rest my case.
just to add, the police have said the police who shot him where wearing police caps. and did shot police get down. but thats what they say. ethically, this is a bad thing but my logical side cant help but take over. i see one life compared to the many more who could have died if it was a bomb. yes its a tragerdy. but... it could have been a far worse tragedy.
What if it had been your brother? Could have been worse then? People's lives are not a matter of numbers.
In all honesty if someone i was related to did that, then of course i would be upset but after i hope i would see what a mistake he made. and to me people live their lives, make their choices. he made a wrong one. sorry if that sounds cold. thats just me
He wasn't the only one who made a mistake. And some mistakes affect other people's lives, not just your own. That's the tragedy.
No in this case he was the only one who made a mistake, the officers carried out their job to the letter and did exactly the right thing.
i gotta say if they wanted to stop the guy why did they not bring in uniformed armed officers? if someone in plain cloths pulled a gun on me i would run away just like he did. if someone whereing a flack jacket with in big white letters saying "POLICE" pulled a gun on me i would do exactly what they say. appart from that i think the police acted in exaclty as they should have done under the circumstances.
Yeah, apart from that and emptying a whole clip in him... I'm not saying that the Police were evil, malicious or anything like that. But somewhere along the line both parties panicked and lost it. And the police cannot afford to panic and lose it.
yer the whole 5 bullets (i think?) was a bit much, however isnt that how there trained because there using low velocity rounds? (think thats what i read somewhere)
How come we're able to sympathise with this bloke, understand why he was scared and ran, and yet seemingly some are unwilling to see that the police themselves could have been scared as well, worried that they were going to get blown up themselves, and maybe panicked (hence the excessive number of shots fired)? The police are human too - perhaps if they weren't it'd make things like this much easier or at least cleaner (two good shots and thats all). At the moment when a police officer faces someone who he thinks could well be a suicide bomber, he/she's probably bricking it to some extent...his/her training tries to get them to cope with this and make the right call, but until the time comes nobody can be really sure :/. I still believe the police need firearms in certain situations though (unlike you kameleon? )- certainly when criminals do, or when theres a need to stop someone to prevent further loss of life, but they can never react perfectly all of the time when they do use firearms. Its just an all round horrible situation for everybody, I still think the police were acting in the interests of preserving public safety, but the human reactions leading up to this tragedy are kind of understandable too (that the guy chose to run was an illogical and dangerous move, but I guess its rather easy for me to say that from behind a keyboard).
Eight bullets. Good grouping; seven in the head and one in the shoulder. While he was lying on the floor, of course, so he can't have been much of a moving target. As I said, someone just emptied a whole clip in him. I know, I know, difficult times, tough call to make and all that. But there is this niggling voice in the back of my head asking what would have happened if this guy had been, say, blonde and blue-eyed. I mean, they were keeping a whole block of flats under surveillance. People must have come and gone. Why pick on him? Looked just a bit too ethnic? Wore too thick a coat for the weather? It all just feels a bit... labile, paranoid. Witch hunt-ish. Much as I appreciate the difficult situation they were dealing with, I do not have a good feeling about certain parts of the police's decision making and behaviour in that case.
will, cos the one guy that was scared and ran for his life. the cop that was scared shot someone 8 times...
