Drug Use & Family Forums

Right true.

Now, I'm gonna make a statement that I'm betting every parent here would agree with.

It is NOT my duty to allow a child to "make their own decisions" about the use of illicit substances, especially as the laws in the US grow tighter and tighter on marijuana usage. It is now hard time to posess even small amounts in many areas, with many pressing for even more stringent penalties. I do not want my children learning that lesson from experience. I do not, in fact, believe it is good parenting to let them loose and let them figure it out themselves, but to show them a proper, productive path, give them the tools of reason and learning, and when their minds are mature enough allow them to take those tools and craft the life they want. To allow them to casually seek ut information like that is bad parenting, and should be defined as child abuse.

Am I a Puritan? Certainly not. My children have watched more scary, groos, violent, or disturbed movies than almost any child I know. But they watch them in a room with a parent present, to reassure them of the line between real and fantasy, to handle the inevitable questions, and to monitor if they're unable to handle it. I have stopped movies and been thanked by my children, and I have stopped movies and been screamed at. However, we do not allow nudity or sexual situations (my oldest is 10, and we already have a bit of reason to worry, but nothing serious, we hope) as we, being a Christian family, do not condone sex before marriage (even though we both are guilty, and in fact the children are all born out of wedlock before she became a Christian.) We know exactly what we did and do not want her to repeat those mistakes.

Sometimes censorship is based on knowledge that there is no good to come from an avenue, or that any good will be heavily weighted with bad. Do I understand the benefits of medicinal THC? You bet, and I'm on a list that when it is approved in my area I am eligible. Do I believe that I am therefore entitled to circumvent the law, possibly destroying my family by landing a hefty prison sentence? No. Neither therefore would I seek to glorify that act, or instruct others to do it. I would in fact seek to stop others where I could, in the attempts to help keep others who may be more impressionable from it.

Long and rambling I know, but I think those points needed to be made. A serious discussion between adults is one thing, elevating us above the realm of monkies to the echelon of thinking creature. A childish e-penis contest of who smokes more and who has the best technique denigrates us all.

Flame away, I've modded forums so long I grew flameproof skin.

 

KayinBlack, you seem like a reasonable guy, and I can see what you're saying, but I can't help but feel your overall point is flawed. You let your kids watch violent television, or movies, but you do it while supervising them. In essence, you're showing them exactly how to kill, mame, and be generally violent(or rather I assume from the description of the movies you let themw watch). You are showing them these things in a responsible and safe environment. If you teach children about illegal drugs in a candid, but non-casual manner, and actually educate them from a young age then they're far less likely to have problems. You don't expect your kids to go out and murder just because they've seen it on TV, and likewise, you wouldn't need to expect your children would go out and smoke cannabis just because you taught them about it. The fact that illegal drugs are taboo, the fact that they aren't discussed, that has to be a big pull for many, many children.

The illegality of Cannabis is rediculous and arbitrary state of law. At least so long as Alcohol and Ciggerettes are legal. Adherence to the law regardless of what that law is or why it exists is a foolish way to live. Unfortunately in the US drug penalties are, as you say, becoming harsher, but in most european countries cannabis is treated lightly.

Maturity requires knowledge, and knowledge requires education. The discussion in question could do with being more informative, but the freedom to have those sorts of discussions are essential for mature ones to take place.

 

So, (simplified and amplified) you are saying: There is no weed as long as you live under my roof... And parents that show their childs that there actually is something called weed, and what it does, are child abusers? It's not because you talk about it your kids are going to use it... In contrary... If you inform them you'll discourage them...

Oh no, you're growing murderers instead of crackheads? j/k

I'm at the other end of the ballpark in this one... Wether you like it or not, sex is a part of life. A part that isn't restricted to marriage only. I could never marry a person I didn't have sex with, not for the sake of sex, but that's one of the thing that have to work in a relation.

How noble... Only 1 problem... Things don't work that way... If your kids are intrested in the subject they'll get their information, one way or another. I'd rather have it given to them from a source I can control, and know is valid and honest. And on a side note... You can try to mould your kinds into perfect humans, but at one point in time they'll say (dramatised): "Hey old geezer, screw you, I'm am right and you are wrong." And if they don't say it out loud they'll surely think it some day.

If you think about it that way, keep your kids of the world wide web... The dope, viagra, porn and other filth around there would surely make their spirits go sour...

If you have read the thread in question, and concluded that, then I must have another draft of the thread... Or you have a whole different definition of "e-penis contests"

 

Then accept this correction:
The use of illegal psychotrophic drugs should be discouraged to minors on the Bit-tech Forums.

There it is, right there.

Spec, you speak of "educating" ones children about drugs. I think this is where we differ. I would teach my kids that drugs are bad. Period. Smoking? Bad for you. Drinking? Bad for you. Drugs? Bad for you. I think you would teach your kids different. I think you'd say "Drugs, meh, some good, some bad, I'll advise you if you want". Thats just not the way it would go for me, which is my personal right as much as your view is yours.

But I would feel undermined as a parent, and yu woudl be taking my right away, if I tried to keep my kids away from drugs and say they are "bad" if the forums they frequented had peers(such as yourself) whose opinion they respected that told them drugs were not "bad". Now if the kid gets to be 18, 20, whatever, and goes and finds out about drugs and does them, thats THEIR decision as young adults, but the information hasn't been put in "harm's way" in the forums they frequented as youngsters.

I get a bit frantic sometimes with these posts cos there are a lot of replies and I CBA to reply to everything as well as I should, and that frustrates me when some of the points don't "get across" cos I haven't had time to type them more fully. So apologies to Spec if I havent been as verbose as I should some of the time. KayinBlack is doing a great job of managing to paraphrase what I am trying to say.

 

Spec, I see you as well as a reassonable, intellectual person. Therefore I will entertain your line of reasoning.

(That stated as there were some opinions posted that I flushed with the toilet paper in the morning.)

On the surface, you would be absolutely correct in your observation of what we are doing, but to further clarify-

They do not have TV. We watch movies as a family, and play video games, but we are not a family glued to the tube. A double-digit percentage of our monthly expenditures goes to books. We heavily promote reading in our household, and the books chosen are seldom in parallel with said movies.

Also, the discussion engendered is important as well. If we discuss the hows and whys, and look at them in relation to our faith and beliefs, they can be powerful teaching tools. Movies are a subject of critique, however undeveloped at their age, as well as a springboard for such as why bad things happen and the real differences between right and wrong. I make sure there is a place for gray, as some things are just that-gray areas, open to conjecture and opinion.

Legality and illegality are discussed as well, especially as we have a mentally challenged child to whom reality is ill defined at best. She requires much monitoring and often we decide for her what is best and what is not, just as we still dress her and still watch her in the bath, so she doesn't pour out soaps and shampoos or drown herself.

Spec, your statements are apt, and well constructed, and make the other, very necessary side of the coin. Hopefully this will enlighten the statements I made earlier, and allow you to see a bit more of my thought process.

Spec, as much as you speak of letting those decide for themselves, sometimes we must for those who cannot. And you never know if they are reading, honestly.

I miss good debates. I should do this more often.

 

Well, I would never teach my kids about "drugs". Because "drugs" is just a catch all term that's usefull for ensuring general ignorance about them, and not a whole lot more. Not all illegal or psychotropic drugs have a detrimental physical effect to ones body(check out salvia divinorum if you don't believe me, I believe erowid has quite a lot of information on it). But if my kids ever wanted to know about what lay within that often used term, then I would explain to them not that some are good and some are bad, but there are positives and negatives to anything that effects your state of mind, as well as possible legal repercussions and in some cases the substances can be bad for your physical health.

I agree, sometimes decisions must be taken for the good of someone, when they cannot make that decision themselves. You don't want to let a child find out that electricity is bad by sticking their fingers in the socket, you stop them before they do it. Children, up to a certain age, are unreasonable, illogical, and to me mostly unfathomable little things. However this forum has a 13 year old registration lower limit placed on it. That means that in theory, there are only people who're aged 13 and over posting and interacting on the forum. That is an age at which people can understand reason, and are not so illogical.

I would not say "Let your children do as they please". Rather, I would say teach your children, and don't expect to be able to curtail what they do right up untill they leave home. At some point you have to hand over the controls, as children develop more and more, they are going to make their own decisions. That isn't something that can be changed. What can be changed is their understanding of the world, and whats in it. I believe a full, complete and honest explanation of illegal drugs, given over the years, is far better then no explanation. In the world we live in most children are going to encounter such things, would you rather the information they had was correct and complete, or that it came from someone who knew little and was attempting just to sell something to someone naive?

No need for apoligies . Considering this is something most people here seem to feel fairly strongly about, I think we've all done a good job of staying reasonably articulate, and mature about it all.

Yes, you definately should

Edit: KayinBlack, I realised I didn't really respond to your latest post so well just there, so I'll attempt to do it a little better now. I can understand what you say, I see your reasoning, you're obviously a good parent just from what you say and how you say it.

I think we're probably talking about different age groups here. You said, I think, that your oldest is 10, but in this thread I've really been talking about 13 year olds and above, since that is the minimum registration age.

With either group though, eventually, they go out into the big wide world. What ones kids do there in uncontrollable. What parents can control is how prepared their children are. A serious and honest education regarding not just the good parts of the world, but the bad parts that they are likely to encounter, is a valuable thing for a parent to give to a child.

 

It's not that black and white, Wireframe. Smoking tobacco is bad for you. Alcohol is not necessarily. There have been many scientific studies showing the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption, especially wine. As for drugs, it's all over the map. Cannibis has many medical benefits, and is generally recognized by the scientific and medical community as fairly harmless. Heroin is another derivitive of the same plant as morphine and a whole class of prescription painkillers. Cocaine in it's pure form is also used medically. My point in this is that things are NOT black and white. To say "Drugs are bad" (M'kay) as a blanket statement is, to my mind far more dangerous than saying "Hey dude, I smoke 20 splifs and snort three lines every day before breakfast. The latter statement might at least be factual.

I'm going to piss some people off saying this, but I feel it needs to be said. I don't care about your kids! If you want to protect them from the world, then more power to you. However, that does NOT give you to right to censor what other people say. This forum is not meant to be a family website, it's target audience is serious geeks. Of course it's going to get visited by children, but so is porn.com. That fact alone is not a justification to censor the content on the site. What censorship does exist is for the benefit of the membership, not the protection of children who might wander in here.

 

What're you suggesting? hehe.

Yodasarmpit pretty much took the words out of my mouth on this issue, as have a bunch of other people. We won't be banning people for discussing the use of drugs as long as it is 'good' discussion.

 

While I have said my peace, I have this to say.

This is not about good and evil, good and bad, or bene or male.

This is about the fact that there are those who view this in differing lights, and the lights that they are viewed in mean that heads will butt, and whoever argues most cogently will get points, but the battle will not end.

I have many issues with drug use, not the least of which is my loss of a mother. The statement must be made that what is good for one may not be able to be handled by another, and some wish to abstain completely. At this juncture, having chased this rabbit as far as it is prudent, we must agree that we shall occasionally hold differing viewpoints, there will be misunderstanding of those viewpoints, but our actions, in all things, whether in reference to drug use, or our debating habits, should ever be constructed so as to help our fellow man.

Strange discourse from a man from the backwoods of rural northwest Alabama, but I have ever been a strange man.

I will enjoy debating further issues in the future, but I have dinner to cook.

 

I apologize for the length that my post will be. I'll seperate it into two sections, replies to previous posts and then my take on the situation.

I've read your posts in this thread and this sums it up quite nicely. Basically you're appalled at the idea of drug use and you think anyone who mentions that they use drugs should be banned. Not because of forum rules, "protecting" the children, or any other nonsense; no, it's all about your view on illicit drug use.

Just as much as the other mindless drivel that fills the forums. People make uneducational comments all the time on the forum, should they all be banned? If people want to comment on how they use drugs then go ahead. I don't condone flat out advocacy of drug use and I certainly don't condone censoring people who choose to use drugs simply because it's malum prohibitum.

Nice inclusion of demeaning statements. You know that prohibition creates vice rings, organized protection, mobs, gangs, and drug lords? Just look at alcohol prohibition in the USA. How many gangs wage war on the streets killing innocent people now that the government controls alocohol sales? Don't believe all the fallacies the government feeds you about drugs. I still remember DARE presentations in school where they would flat out lie to you about the effects of drugs. We're not talking education here we're talking about manipulation.

Well here in the US if something isn't explicitly prohibited it's legal. At least that's how it used to be.

Then you live in a dream world. As a parent you teach your children how to make educated decisions for themselves, not make choices for them. Prepare them for the world as best you can, you can't control them or protect them forever.

You allow violence but not sex and nudity? I'm only going to touch on this briefly but it seems to me sex and nudity are completely natural, something to be encouraged. The USA is so backwards in this regard. Sex is not worse than violence.

And I'll educate my children properly. Kids naturally rebel so you might as well give them the necessary tools to make the right decision. If you just say, "No drugs" without even an explination then when someone asks them if they want to take a hit from a joint they're going to do it. They'll do it to spite you and they won't have a good reason to say no.

Now for my take on the matter. I've done a lot of drugs, cannabis, opiates, amphetamines, LSD, etc... My father taught me moderation. He realized there was no way he could control me once I got a car. He even offered to give me a ride if at some point I was too drunk to drive. Would he have been mad? Hell yes he would have. The point is he would rather see my alive than too scared to call him when I'm under the influence and risk my life and the lives of others while driving home.

I know for a fact that my kids will get a similar discussion. I'll tell them the pros and cons of drugs and I'll tell them that I would prefer they not do them. However, if they do decide to do drugs then they better do it in a safe place with trusted people and I will expect them to call me if they need help. If I find them driving under the influence of anything then they won't see the light of day until they're 18. I want them to make the proper decisions on their own and I want them to be able to come to me if they have to. I'd rather they screw up a few times while they're under my supervision than out in the real world where there can be some very dire consequences.

As far as the thread is concerned I don't really see any advocacy of drug use. I see people talking about their personal habits which is harmless in my opinion. I hope the moderators and administrators realize this in their considerations.

 

Astrum, well constructed post, and you are right about a lot of it.

I don't expect to control them forever, but at 10 years old I expect more than a modicum of it. As they age we have to loosen the reins or we destroy them. I understand that. Remember I also stated that it was necessary to equip them with the tools to make their own decisions.

As for some of my other statements, do remember we are Christians, and while I do not wish to force my beliefs on you, have respect for the fact that we attempt to raise them in line with our beliefs. Both my wife and I did serious damage to our quality of life by engaging in premarital sex, as we wish to spare our children that. Besides, we do not condone violence, but use such as a good moral discussion of right and wrong by allowing our children to see them with an adult who has watched it before and deemed it OK for them to see. There are lines we draw, do not worry.

Even though there are those disagreements, you still have a good argument.

 

Just caught a glimpse of this - and I'm glad I did. I have a few points to make:

1. Discussion is just that. It is an activity which promotes logic and understanding by bringing to light different points of view regarding the issue at hand. I strongly believe that understanding is key in any decision, whther it's drugs or something else. I'll illustrate this with an example: A Discussion About Murder - "If you murder someone you don't like, they won't bother you any more" "but you will go to jail and therefore ruin two lives as well as harming others around you" etc. As you can see this type of discussion is essential in informing people of the pros, cons and consequences of certain actions, thus allowing them to make an EDUCATED decision. I think you will also agree with me when I say that this is likely to be more effective than just saying "DON'T DO IT, IT'S BAD".

2. The signature I saw on the forums illustrated my second point very well. " I may not like what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it"

3. I'm seventeen and I HAVE smoked marijuana. However, had I had accurate, unbiased information about it I probably wouldn't. As things stand I did try it a few times and decided that I DO NOT like it as I prefer to be in control of myself. I am also a [cigarette] smoker (moderate) and not proud of it. In regards to both of these things I would advise anyone NOT to go down that road. However, IF somebody decided to go against my advice I would consider it their RIGHT to do so.

4. Answer me this: Does the fact that I have tried marijuana or that I smoke or that I ocasionally consume alcohol make me a bad person, a less valuable member of our diverse society?

In conclusion, while I find some of the points raised by wireframe in this discussion valid, I believe it is every parent's DUTY to give their child the best information they possibly can, and encourage discussion in order for the child to grow into a confident and well informed adult. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER - can you afford to deny your child that?

IMHO​

-ed out

 

Regardless of what you as a parent want your child to be exposed to, it is not this website's (nor any other website) responsibility to condone to it. YOU as a parent should instead educate and inform your kids as to what they should and shouldn't be doing, and it is your responsibility to keep them from looking at something you disapprove of.

Now, while Bit-tech may call itself a family forum, it also requires users to be at least 13 to register. If there's anyone younger on the forums, it is the parent's and not the website's fault.

My personal opinion is that it's fine if a kid/teenager wants to discuss this kind of stuff... it's a completely different matter if they're actually doing it.

 

I wanted to ask you about that, Kayin, if you don't mind. I've often heard that cited as a reason not to have premarital sex, but it's never made sense to me. Short of getting raped which is by definition non-consensual, or pregnancy or an STD, how does someone get hurt by having sex?

Personally, I belive that virgins should not marry, especially to eachoter. Sex is a skill, and it is one that is learned. Bad sex and a lack of sex destroys relationships too, probably more frequently than infidelity. I think people should life together as if they were married for at least two years before they actually do the paperwork in order to be sure this is what they really want, but that's just my $.02

 

While at the same time it is OK to admit smoking cigarettes or drinking alcohol, because they're legal? Even though they are just as harmful in their own way?

I'm sorry, but that is a frankly rediculous thing to say.

 

WireFrame, it seems to me that your stance on this matter is along the lines of "you can say anything as long as I agree with it". Frankly, I'm glad you're not a mod as, unlike the staff here at bit tech, you seem to lack the maturity to understand that posts in the forums reflect the views of the author, not of the site and said author has the right to hold and express those views regardless of whether you, I or anyone else agrees with them. As for the "Drinking? Bad for you." comment, you might want to check this out. While the things you listed are indeed bad for you if abused, they can have positive effects when consumed in moderation. Both alcohol and marijuana have been used for centuries in social contexts as relaxants and social "lubricants" [don't think rude ]. Oh, and I won't even go into the religious debate regarding marijuana. Remember, most things have negative effects when abused. Surely, you wouldn't contemplate making food illegal because it is bad for you when consumed in excess. I think the key here is moderation. As for the legality debate, you might want to think back to WW2 (Poland) when laws were passed to ensure that all jews wear a large badge on their arm. Surely, you wouldn't say that the law is always right.

- ed out

 

Just on a side note. Your children are not you. Although it is normal for parents to want to protect their children from making the same mistakes, there is no cosmic law that says that they will experience a similar situation in the same way, or deal with it in the same way. Premarital sex did not work out for you, but that does not mean that it will inevitably lead to disaster for your children (once they are mature enough adults to handle sex).

I guess this sums up a lot of this debate. We are all at risk of projecting our fears and worries in the rest of the world. People will not necessarily react to things the way that we think or fear that they will. Perhaps people will be able to deal with the discussion on drugs in this forum in an appropriate way. Perhaps we have little control over that in any case. We can only do our bit to handle our side of the conversation responsibly, and trust that others will do the same on their side. Because that is what good relationships are about: mutual trust. Because we are all halfway intelligent, decent human beings, right?

 

Again, I can't keep up with all the posts, but I'll touch a few points:

Then you clearly HAVEN'T Read my posts. I say ONE MORE TIME: drug discussion is good. Tell me all about cander-marijuana links and mexican drug cartels. Wicked. BUT. Don't advocate drug use. Don't try to convince me smoking TCH 5 times a day for 4 years is all good, and that anything less than that makes you a lightweight. How much clearer can that be?

I dislike both, frankly. As I have said, I would ban alcohol if I could, and smoking is on its way out, with the pubs/clubs ban. But I don't see any threads on here saying "I drink 5 pints a day, anything less and you're a lightweight. Find me one, and I'll gladly concede the point that we should also ban boasting about one's excessive consumption of what is, essentially, a poison.

I know. A glass of red wine a month is meant to be very good for you. But I would still teach my children that alcohol is bad. Just as I would teach them Violence is bad and swearing is bad. Its not always true, there are situations when both are appropriate and even necessary. But they would know that whilst a certain situation calls for such actions, it is not necessary to perpetuatuate that mode of behaviour at all times. You wouldn't punch people in the street for no reason, etc.

It is, unfortunately, this very attitude that brings about censorship. If you took a little more responsability for things you say instead of trying to "educate" people that really have no *need* to be "educated" as such a tender age, then perhaps the mods wouldn't have to engage a swear filter, and ban Warez discussions. I see no threads on "bring bak t3h W4r3z!". Because you all agree thgat this is not the place to talk about such things. Yea, people do it (I've heard), and I'm sure you all run shareware apps you SHOULD have bought months ago, or have an MP3 Of that one track you like, but the rest of the album sucks. Thats ok. We all know. BUT. Bit does not permit discussion of it. Because it is illegal, Not Family Friendly, and could lead to other nasties. Try it. Start a Warez thread in GD. See how fast any of the mods come down on it. Now, if you bring up an articles about warez or spammers in SD, thats ok, ti has newsworthy discussion value. But "I smoke 5 joints a day" has no metit, and comments like this, along with advocacy, promotion or admittance of drug use should be met with a ban.

Seriously. If this were joyriding, or mugging or murder, nobody would be in defiance of this. Is it because so many of you do it that you don't want to be able to mention that you smoke a "bit of green" to your online mates now and then? Thats the ultimate loserboi e-penis. If there are SO MANY GREAT sites out there that tell you ALL ABOUT how good/bad/indifferent all different drugs are, Bit has no need for such "information", although I have yet to see any real information, just what best to cut cheap weed with.

EDIT:

Social lubricants are a myth. Alcohol and Marijuana alter your mental state to make you think you're having a good time. My mates drink when we go out to clubs. I don't. They think they'r ehaving the best time ever. But the place is still rubbish, the music is still repetitive and dull, and the people are all dull. You just don't notice cos you're under the influence.

I see no debate. Marijuana IS ILLEGAL in the UK. End of debate. And smooth move trying to compare me to Hitler....

 

You can't be more wrong... How many friendships/conversations have started with the words:"Have you got a fire for me?" And If you smoke 1 joint your state of mind won't be altered that much so you don't remember a thing. Same goes for 1 pint of beer... So stop overreacting, please...

Wow, a bit of a large ego here? Do you make the laws? Guess not... He was just pointing out that not all laws are good, or even logical... And not because something is Illegal it can't be discussed... That's censorship, which is a bad thing...

 

It is good that people feel passionate about this issue, but let's watch our posts here, OK? I already see the first sparks smouldering towards flames.