So many parallels. The US (together with Australia, New Zealand, Canada, most of South America, Africa and divers other countries) was founded by settlers taking over from an indigenous population who weren't doing much with the land available and were too backward to fight back. You think Manhattan should be returned to the Manhattoes? Handing back Israel to Arab control is not an option and there are no compromise deals where any reduced state of Israel will be left in peace by its neighbours. The over-reaction to attack, the strikes on towns and villages, are no different to the attacks in Afganistan and Iraq. Except the magnitude is far less in Lebanon. Two wrongs don't make a right, but Israel can sure point the finger and claim a far better reason for their attacks. They experience 9/11 every day.
cpemma I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I dont think anyone here is naive enough to beleive that Israel should be handed back I was just enlightening people about the basic history of the formation of the Israeli state. I do not beleive that Israel should be handed back. However I do believe that Israel should retreat to its 1967 borders which would resolve its dispute with Syria and most of Gaza. I do disagree totally with your final comment. Iraq is a totaly different situation in how it origionated. I am appaled at the civilian death toll in Iraq e.t.c However the Israeli attack is in response to the kidnap of 2 soldiers which to my knowledge Israel has made NO attempt to rescue. This is a totally disproportionate attack. Its equivalent me stealing your bike and you coming round burn my house down and killing my extended family. Any comments you make towards Iraq I will most likely agree with. It was a big mistake and has been handled appalingly by the US and the UK. There have been brutal killings by the US and probably the UK of civilians at little or no provocation. However they have not destroyed an entire contry's infrastructure and economy for the SOLE reason that two soldiers are missing.
An excuse for military action, I grant you, though BTW, "On July 12, 2006, Hezbollah terrorists crossed the international border and kidpnapped two Israeli soldiers and killed three others". Like Saddam's WMD, and that wasn't even fact. Still destroyed a country's infrastructure and economy, plus killed around 40,000 civilians. And one should remember the Vietnam war was escalated into a full-blown conflict by alleged attacks on American warships after a great deal of undercover provocation by America. When the military are spoiling for a fight, any excuse will do. Don't be confused into thinking this started all because of the kidnap of those two soldiers, any more than WW1 started because of some Archduke being assassinated at Sarajevo. They provided a reason for Israel to do something with public support that it's been goaded into over many years, the surrounding countries have been doing far more than stealing the odd bike. Their reaction probably won't work, but it's difficult to discuss a peace system with people who want you exterminated. The long-term aim must be to get the rest of the world to pressure their neighbours into stopping their active encouragement of terrorist action, even if it means Israel has to give up captured territory. Nexxo's suggesting "ordinary arabs" don't support arab terrorists. I'd suggest many arab governments do.
Is Israel terrorist? Absolutely. They disregard the Geneva convention, they blow up UN observers, they're indiscriminately killing civilians destroying their homes, and making hundreds of thousands homeless. They should be ashamed of themselves, as should that warmonger Bush and his pet poodle Blair. Bush, in particular, is a f***ing hypocritical murderer. He vetos research on little bundles of cells because he "believes innocent lives should be protected at all costs". What is he doing to protect the innocent lives being lost in the Lebanon? Absolutely nothing. In fact, he does less than nothing---he keeps shipping arms to the Israelis to allow them to continue the slaughter. I really, really hope that he's right and that Heaven exists, because if it does he'll be burning in Hell for his sins against humanity---along with the likes of Olmert and Sharon. The armed wing of Hezbollah can join him there too. As for Blair, apparently he "believes in Democracy". So much so that he's started civil war in Iraq. What are you doing to protect the newly democratic state of Lebanon Blair? What price for your toadying to Bush? Sam
Yes, they do, and they shouldn't. However, the Palestinian Fatah government did acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, and look where it got them. If we want moderate governments in the Middle East who are prepared to negotiate, perhaps we and Israel ought to be a bit more open to working with them. Otherwise such governments soon get replaced with more extremist types who like to use force and coercion as much as we do.
It resulted in Israel relinquishing control of many of the occupied territories, unfortunately Shiron's illness and then Hamas coming into power put paid to that progress. With Shiron and the Hamas party in power there appeared to be some light at the end of the tunnel, there doesn't now.
you say we have become evil that is when the news networks dont show you the whole story let me tell you: you see them suffering but they help the hezbhala with the firing rockets from their back yard to israel and killin' people and the ones who tries to run after announcement of our forces that there is going to be an attack on hezbhalla positions hezbhalla take those people and keep them from getting out of the city walls untill the attack hezbhalla keep them to rasie the number of dead in the news you may think that is absurd but that is the kind of evil that they are.... but why havn't you called them evil when they sent a suicide boomer and killed 30-40 israelis every other week...huh why?????? you will never realize the situation we r in untill u will have man who will enter your house with intention to slaughter your family your friends and you !! without feeling a slight regret because he hate you that much you will never understand untill it will happen to you..........
When I heard this on the news this morning I automatically thought "Hmm... so the Americans are going to support the Lebanese army as well as continuing to supply arms to Israel."
Be clear attacking Hezbollah isn't what makes the IDF actions evil - its the blatant killing of innocents that does. Don't think that becoming terrorists to fight terrorists is justified - it isn't! And don't think that I find the slightest difference between jewish deaths at a wedding bombing or Lebanese deaths at an israeli bombing, both are obscene and disgusting acts of barbarism. We in the UK have fought terrorists (IRA etc) for years - they have murdered babies and children - yet we have not bombed the catholic areas or nuked Dublin.. Don't confuse views of the Israeli states evil actions with Views that Israeli citizens are the same.
Not entirely so (look, do you guys actually read the thread?). Sharon's government undermined the Palestinian Authority at every turn, rather than seeking to work with them. This made them look rather ineffectual in the eyes of the Palestinian voters (the arrogant and corrupt behaviour of some of their members did not help either, of course), who decided to vote for Hamas. This happens every time. We expect governments in the Middle East to be moderate and democratic, but then expect them to effect dramatic political change with the swift decisiveness and authority of a totalitarian regime. When the democratic process takes a while longer (who would have thought?) we run out of patience and refuse to co-operate or even outright undermine them. Imagine our surprise when a more extremist regime then takes over... Politicians in the Middle East are learning their lessons from this. Moderate co-operative governments perish, extremist confrontative governments thrive. But I suspect that's how we like it...
The problem is though Stuey that there are 10 lebanese kids for every 1 in Israeli hospitals. Israeli hospitals are clean and high tech, lebanese hospitals in heavily bombed areas are frequently destroyed and so you have the injured children being treated by whoever is left in a school or shop or wherever there is space. We know Hizbullah do these bad things, but many of us don't see why we should have any support for Israel at all when the IDF seems to be managing to cause the same things. The bulk of the dead lebanese in the war so far have been civilians. It's hardly been a successfull campaign, and Israel wants another 10 days of it.
Precisely. It's hard to believe Israel's cries of "we're the victims in this, honest, we are" when there are so many more dead Lebanese than Israelis. I see they've called a temporary halt to the bombing. Presumably they're waiting on their next shipment of bombs from the peace lovin' US of A? Oh, and Tony finally seems to be changing his tune. Shame it took the deaths of 30 children yesterday to do so Sam
First off: Punctuation Is Good. I mean, I really respect your opinion and I want to respond to it in a serious manner, but I had to read your post three times just to get the gist of it. Please use punctuation. What makes less sense is the claims that you make. The Hez are evil sods, but the allegations you make simply sound like the kind of propaganda that you accuse the media of. We have no doubt that the Hezbollah hide amongst the civilian population and use them as a human shield. What we do doubt is whether that makes it alright to bomb the civilians. Sort of like blowing up the building and killing the hostages to take out the hostage takers, isn't it? I think you fail to get our perspective. The reason nobody seems to make a big deal about the Hezbollah's actions is because it is generally accepted that yes, they are terrorists. We know that they are evil, and do evil things. No surprises there. Yes, they kill innocent Israeli civilians and yes, that is wrong. Yes, they deserve everything that Israel flings at them in retaliation. Nobody, you will have noticed, mentions Hezbollah casualties either because nobody cares about them. Nobody denies Israel the right to defend itself from terrorists. But when Israel knowingly resorts to tactics that result in many civilian deaths, you have to sort of wonder if it is that much better than the evil terrorists it tries to kill. You see, being the Good Guy means that you don't get to behave like the Bad Guy. You don't get the same options. The Bad Guy cheats because that is evil's way, but the Good Guy can't, because Good Guys have to be good. As a result, the Good Guys do not always get to win. But that is the price you pay for being the Good Guy. Being the Good Guy is hard. That is why so many people go for the Door marked "Evil" instead. Evil is easier. In any case, it often feels more gratifying. Now Israel has a right to defend itself. If it decides that bombing civilians is a reasonable way to do it, that is Israel's choice, but it is not the Good Guy's choice. It may be a necessary evil, or the lesser evil, but it is still evil. Israel still loses its moral high ground. People will still ask how different bombing Lebanese civilians is from bombing Israeli civilians. Two wrongs do not make a right. Now it could be argued that it is easy to moralise sitting in the comfort of our chairs away from the battlezone, and perhaps a lot of people would feel different if they were living in Northern Israel (but perhaps you would, if you lived in Southern Lebanon). Nobody likes living in fear, as Stuey83 says. But fear distorts perception and judgement --it makes you do quite stupid things. Sometimes, it makes you do quite evil things. And regardless of whether you think is a legitimate way of dealing with this situation, just look at the outcome: the shelling of Northern Israel has not stopped; the Hezbollah has grown stronger, not weaker; they now have more support than ever amongst the Lebanese population, not less. Again no surprises there. Evil begets evil. The analogue of a crazy hateful guy entering your house to slaughter your family is a graphic one (if a simplistic one), and I'm sure I would do whatever it takes to neutralise him and protect my family. However I do not think that would legitimately extend itself to torching all the houses in the street were he happens to live, just to make sure that I get him. I might reasonably expect however, that all these newly homeless people with burnt family members consider me the crazy, hateful guy who has come to slaughter their family, and become a little crazy and hateful themselves. Kind of a vicious cycle, isn't it?
i understand your perspective. and i agree with u on some stuff. you have a good point. i am not justifying any killing on any side not our soldiers and people and not there people. but in state we are in we cant let them attack us without reacting. like u said "Nobody denies Israel the right to defend itself from terrorists" but war as it is some times innocent people dies on both sides, untill we destroy hazbhalla we will still have to react to any thing they do. and it's not true the hazbhalla not getting weaker they are, and if not weaker not stronger.
Is that much different to the Americans giving Israel billions of dollars in aid and weapons to aid them in their bombing of civilians? Sam
You say some times innocent people die on both sides. I unfortunatly have to accept there will always be collateral damage in war but when over 90% of those killed are civilians that is no whre near acceptable. Actually looking at recent polls notably ones of christians in Lebanon support for Hezbhola has increased dramatically since the offencive started. Which I think is a sign that it is totally counter productive.
