Well in respondance to this thread i thought it might be nice to have a single thread to discuss cooling as there seem to be so many questions regarding heatsinks etc. I'm thinking we could have: Cooling Setups Cooler Discussions (perhaps a recomended list) Xtreme cooling how to and discussion. Watercooling Tips and tricks and just general QnA ######################################## Big thanks to Heavytank2 for writing this section. Phase Cooling: The Basics The Refrigeration Cycle: These are 4 conditions of the refrigerant in a refrigeration loop, and they are: 1) Hi-Pressure Vapor The state of the refrigerant after it has left the compressor. Compressing a gas increases it temperature. 2) Hi-Pressure Liquid The state of the refrigerant after it has been cooled in the condenser and became condensed from a vapor, to a liquid, while under pressure from the compressor. 3) Low-Pressure Liquid This is the state of the refrigerant as it is exiting the metering device, cap-tube, TXV (Thermostatic Valve), etc. Usually is accompanied by varying amounts of low-pressure vapor as well. 4) Low-Pressure Vapor The state of the refrigerant after it has gained heat, usually from the evaporator. Knowing when these states are supposed to occur can help troubleshoot a system later down the road. When it is not doing it job, you know that one of these processes is not occurring or rather poorly. The cycle is best described as so: Compressor: High Pressure Vapor ----> Condenser: High-pressure liquid ----> Metering Device: Low-Pressure Liquid ---> Evaporator: Low-Pressure Vapor---> Back to compressor. Pressure-Temperature Relationship of Refrigerants: These go hand in hand. If you increase pressure, you make it easier for liquid to condense at higher temperatures. If you decrease pressure, it more readily evaporates and can produce lower temperatures. This is directly related to how strong of a pull your compressor can muster (btu/hp rating). Common types of Compressors: “Scroll” and “Rotary” compressors (typically in window units) are known for their pull down. And is personally the type I aim for when making a chiller or vacuum pump as they can produce more vacuum (lower temps/pressures). These are typically shaped like a tall can and run R22 or colder gases. You typical compressor in smaller devices is a “reciprocating hermetic”; meaning piston style compressor, in a sealed shell. This is the one that is shaped like a ball/boulder; for lack of better description. Lmao. These will usually work for direct-die (watch the HP rating) as the loads are less. Refrigerants: I exclusively use R290 (propane) due to the fact it’s cheap, cold (same as R22), and can double as a shielding gas during brazing with some precautions. Not to mention legal to possess and relatively harmless to the environment. TOOLS YOU NEED: 1) Brazing rods: I use bernzomatic P/N: PS3 copper brazing rods. They have no silver in them and some people will gripe about that. But as long as you heat the work enough you should have no problem getting them to “flow”. Avg Cost: $2-3. Brazing Rods 2) Blowtorch: I use a “click-start” style torch. Bernzomatic sells one of these as well but they can be found under many brand names. Will take MAPP gas for heavier work. Avg price. $20 for torch. $20-30 for a kit. Torch 3) Gauges (Gauge Manifold Set): You can find these in many brands and configurations. It’s up to you how much money you want to spend. But the two key features to look for is a Sight Glass and Press/Temp scales on the dials for the gas you will commonly use. (R22 for propane usually works). Although any will ultimately work as you can look up each gasses’ press/temp chart. Summit-racing was offering a set for $60 shipped as of May13th (Ebay). 4) Vacuum Pump: This is the most expensive but essential part of the whole tool outfit. It is responsible for removing excess water which can turn refrigerant oils acidic and also turn to ice blocking metering devices. It averages around $200 for a good pump in the 3scfm range. The higher that number the larger of a system it can reliably evacuate. Stick to a decent brand, Robinair as an example. These can be homebuilt using two spare compressors brazed together in series. More on that later. (to be added) 5) Tubing tools: You will need a tubing bender, tubing cutter, and flaring/swaging tools. A GOOD swaging set will be of the clamp/block style that you can change out the heads on. The type you pound with a hammer will cause more cussing then anything else and will probably end up ruining vital connections. Such as your compressor outlet. Invest in one of these babies…. Flaring/Swaging Set on Ebay $45. 3/16-1/2” Tubing Cutter. $5-10 6) Simple hand tools: Use common sense here; since most of you are modders you will have dremels, hammers, drills and drill bits. The above is the specialized bits. BRAZING Ah yes, the major almost controversial (with how much it is discussed) section of building your own phase-change unit. It is really easy to get the hang of and my best advice is to mount 4” pieces of copper that you have swaged/flared in a vise and have at it. The goal here is to get the work hot enough so that the brazing rod flows like solder. The key difference between soldering and brazing is the temperature. That’s it. So what you’re looking for is a dull red-orange glow. Too bright and you risk making it brittle or oxidizing the crap out of it. When connecting a lighter in gauge/thickness material to a heavier one you want to heat the heavier one first; as this will hold the heat long enough for you to heat the lighter piece second. This prevents you from burning the light piece up. Such as cap-tubing. There are two “cones” in a typical torch flame. The inner almost white/blue cone is the one that dishes out the most heat and is the one you want to “aim” with when trying to get that glow. The outer cone (darker blue) can be used to keep already heated parts at the correct temperature without over-doing it. (I don’t own a camera right now, may have to borrow one for examples.) Using propane as a shielding gas: I usually flow gas ahead of the connection I am working on, and out the service valve of the compressor where I take a lighter to it to burn the gas off so it doesn’t collect somewhere and do nasty things. I control the gas using some extra cap tubing (think restrictive, 10ft - 0.026” dia) brazed to an extra Schrader valve and then passed-thru/controlled via my gauge manifold. It takes a light hand to get the flame so its not 10 inches long, so take your time getting it to about candle height. Why do this? Copper likes to Oxidize; or form a black coating when heated. This can chip off later during heat cycles and possibly clog a cap tube. A few people get away without this step. But it is not hard to prevent, so I just do it. Now most people are thinking…. Propane? Torches? This is dangerous stuff! The conditions of brazing do not allow for a sealed oxygen and propane rich environment to risk an explosion. As far as fires go, propane is heavier than air and likes to collect near the ground. This can be a problem, but quite simply. Just keep it lit and have some windows/fan going/go outside if your worried. Picture showing propane "adapter". Basically a cheap torch with a de-cored shraeder valve brazed on. Used map due to the thickness of the torch. In action. DO NOT attempt to use other refrigerants as shielding gas! These can release a host of bad chemicals not meant to be inhaled. ONLY propane and dry nitrogen! PLEASE don’t release anything with R-12! Its 18x times as bad for the atmosphere than R22! And even R-22 is scheduled for discontinuation around 2010-2011. (ODP) Ozone Depletion Potential is just that. It’s meant to be a reference of how bad a certain gas reacts to the health of our Ozone. Examples: R-12 (ODP 0.93) --- R-22 (ODP 0.05) ---- R-134A (0.00) --- R-507 (0.00) The closer the number to a whole number (1 in this case) the more damaging, think of it as a percentage. If there are any requests for other refrigerants and their Ozone Depletion Potentials (ODP) I will gladly post them. ######################################## Ending Credits: Cooler: TR Ultra 120-A + 120mm Yate Loon CPU: 9850BE GPU: 4870 1GB Case: Aplus Black Pearl Fans: 2x120mm stock, 120mm Yate Loon Temps (Idle/Load): Ambient: ~20°C CPU: 35°C/45°C GPU: 77°C/77°C Case: 27°C wuyanxu Cooler: TRUE + 2x Noiseblockers 120mm (rebranded Yate Loon) CPU: Q6600 @ 3.4Ghz GPU: GTX260 216 Case: Antec p182 Fans: 2x 120mm, 140mm at top, 92mm blowing at GPU Temps (Idle/Load): Ambient: 18°C CPU: ~40°C/65°C (note: CPU fans slow down to 6v when idle) GPU: 50°C/70°C Case: 35°C No Prisoners Cooler: Swiftech GTZ + EK NB block + EK full cover FC260 GTX SLI - Plexi + DDC-1T Ultra + PA120.3 CPU: Q9450 @ 3.4GHz GPU: GTX260-216 55nm Case: Lian-Li PC-A77b Fans: 3x Noctua NF-P12 on rad (~800rpm) + 2x Noctua NF-S12 in case Temps (idle/load)°C Ambient: 18°C CPU: 28°C/39°C GPU: 36°C/41°C Case ~25°C pistol_pete: Cooler: TRUE + 120mm Antec Tricool @ 1000rpm CPU: Q6600 G0 @ 3ghz (1.25V, 1.2875Vcore) GPU: 8800GT 512MB Case: Antec Nine Hundred Fans: 4x120mm tricools @ 1000rpm, 200mm @ 800rpm Temps (Idle/Load): Ambient: ~20°C CPU:34 °C/48°C GPU: 60°C/85°C Xtrafresh: Block: Magicool (from a set) Pump: Magicool (from a set) Rad: Black Ice Xtreme 240mm CPU: QX6850 @ 3,6GHz GPU: 4870 1GB with HR-03 GT & 92mm Panaflo fan Case: Custom built Fans: 2x120mm Aerocool Turbine, 220mm Coolermaster Temps (Idle/Load): Ambient: ~20°C CPU: 35°C/79°C GPU: 45°C/51°C Case: 27°C Kamikaze-X: Cooler: Asus Silent Knight CPU: Core 2 Duo E6600@3.1Ghz GPU: HD4850 + Akasa Neo Vortex Case: Thermaltake Armor Jr Temps (Idle/Load): Ambient: ~ 25°C CPU: 20°C/34°C GPU: 40°C/51°C Copy paste ° or °C. It makes my life easier. ######################################## Any suggestions? (also mods: feel free to take it upon yourselves to edit in new setups etc)
First off, nice initiative. Not sure if it will catch on, but it sure seems like a great idea to have a repository of cooling data in one place. Second, all the temps in the world are meaningless unless we know your ambients.
Oh yes, I forgot that. Not sure how I'll get it, I'll test my PC when it boots up (I'm going by the sensor in my case)
Not bad idea for a thread. For the guy that started the thread which spawned this one you could try Extreme Overclocking it's not a bad forum and has an active section for LN2, phase change etc
Cooler: TR Ultra 120-Extreme + 2x Noiseblockers 120mm (rebranded Yate Loon) CPU: Intel Q6600 at 3.4Ghz GPU: nVidia GTX260 216 Case: Antec p182 2x 120mm fans, 140mm at top, 92mm blow at GPU Temps (Idle/Load): CPU: 40-45oC/65oC (note: CPU fans slow down to 6v when idle, so idle temp is terrible) GPU: 50oC/70oC Case: 35oC (taken from Abit iP35 Pro's motherboard reading, not sure where's the sensor) room temperature about 18c because my 1TB Green is the idling data drive, sits at around 10 to 14c higher than room temperature.
Cooler: Swiftech GTZ + EK NB block + EK full cover FC260 GTX SLI - Plexi + DDC-1T Ultra w/EK V2 DDC X-TOP + PA120.3 CPU: Q9450 @ 3.4GHz GPU: GTX260-216 55nm Case: Lian-Li PC-A77b 3x Noctua NF-P12 on rad (~800rpm) + 2x Noctua NF-S12 in case Temps (idle/load)oC CPU: 28/39 GPU: 36/41 Case ~ 25 Ambient room temp: 17-18oC
pistol_pete: Cooler: TR Ultra 120-Extreme + 120mm Antec Tricool at 1000rpm CPU: Q6600 G0 at 3ghz (1.25V, 1.2875Vcore) GPU: 8800GT 512MB stock cooler Case: Antec Nine Hundred Fans: 4x120mm tricools at 1000rpm, 200mm fan at 800rpm Temps (Idle/Load): Ambient: ~20°C CPU:34 °C/48°C GPU: 60°C/85°C Case: whatever °C
Since this is a cooling thread I thought it makes sense to ask my question here! I'm looking to build a new AM3 based rig and plan to water cool it. I'd be aiming for the 720BE and the new ATI 7700. The questions are as follows: A) CPU and GPU should be on separate loops, right? B) Is it worth including the Northbridge in the CPU loop, or is it possible to cool it sufficiently with air? C) Will the waterblocks for the 4850 and such fit the 7700? And just to throw something out there: I read that review of the CoolIT Freezone Elite and was wondering...Has anyone tried a similar self built system? Chuck a couple of TECs against a radiator or perhaps fashion a block to go on a TEC unit for maximum cooling. Would be interesting to see the results of TEC in a user built system... Edit: Just to try as much in as possible, if anyone can just offhand recommend an AM3 board I'd be grateful.
A) depends on the size of the rad tbh, if you have a 120x3 its fine. B) depends if you are looking at overclocking. C) Probably not - each new card normally gets a new full cover block As for the yecs you can do this once you have been using normal WC for a while and know what your doing tho.
In terms of Boards the MSI GD-70 seems to make Bindi come in his pants every time he sees it (he has a fetish for the colour blue). Joking (or not) aside it's highly recommended by most of Bit-tech and beyond.
Yay, this is a perfect thread for me, as i seem to be needing a LOT of help on the watercooling front! Before i start spamming you with my questions, here's my setup: Xtrafresh: Block: Magicool (from a set) Pump: Magicool (from a set) Rad: Black Ice Xtreme 240mm CPU: QX6850 @ 3,6GHz GPU: 4870 1GB with HR-03 GT & 92mm Panaflo fan Case: Custom built Fans: 2x120mm Aerocool Turbine, 220mm Coolermaster Temps (Idle/Load): Ambient: ~19°C/23°C CPU: 35°C/79°C GPU: 45°C/51°C Case: 27°C And there you have it! My real big problem is obviously the rediculous load temp on the CPU. This CPU should be able to go all the way up to 4GHz, but not with themps like that, especially under water! I think the main culprit here is my pump. I have built a pretty restrictive loop (small case, so there are some weird bends needed), and i think i may have fitted a few parts the wrong way around. I'm going to replace the pump, so that;s out of the way, but still... A few questions about building a good loop: - I have the rad mounted vertically, with the fittings on the bottom. Is that too restrictive? - What is the proper way to fit a fillport, and is it possible to avoid having to use one at all?
Congrats you have a pump that is well know in the business for having an 80%+ RMA rate You need to ditch the pump and the block ASAP before they melt your system. Magicool are ok ar Rads but thats it! Mounting the rad like that is fine. As for the fill port these are manly used if you dont have a res or want an easy way to fill you system. If you dont want to use a res then you attach the fill port to a T-connector and use it to directly fill your loop.
Yikes! I was looking to get the Asetek Waterchill 12V Xtreme pump to replace this one with. Does that get a thumbs up? Oh, and why does the block need to go? It seems to be fine, and it performed wuite a bit better then the reserator block when that was on there...
TBH you really want to be looking at Laing / XSPC pumps and then an XSPC / Swiftech / D-tek CPU block. The reason i recommend changin it is ive seen a few crack so i dont trust them If you are on a budget then XSPC offers the best bang for buck.
So I assume I can just start pasting in here what I've written up so far on phase-change? How-to-ish? If there is some interest I can probably have some kinda system running in a week, have 8 days off. Woot vacation for the win! Just got ahold of a dehumidifer with a nice condensor and extra compressor (need 2 for a half-decent vac pump).
