Just to shed a little light on my 2 cents earlier and nothing against the bible or religion personally, but given the age of the bible and how languages change with time, meanings, wordings, ect. ect. not to mention who knows how many times its been edited since it was written. Its kind of hard to prove for a fact that the way its interpreted in this day in age is the same as it was meant to be when it was written oh so long ago. If I remember correctly is from the king james version right? which just so happens to be the latest revision of the bible in the english language. by the time this was released sodomy was allready in the english vocabulary same as it is today, sodomy comes from the word sodom (sodom and gamora reference from your earlier post) since homosexual intercorse is sodomy for the most part, it was interpreted in the king james verson that god hates homosexuals, which is a kind of oxymoron, since god is supposed to love everyone, reguardless of who or what they are. To say that is also like saying GOD hates you if are born with CP, or get or are born with AIDS, I guess my main point is that yes the bible teaches how to live a "moral" way of living, but it shouldn't run/rule life as its written word for word, it should atleast give you a good rough draft, and know right from wrong enough that hate itself is a sin, a sin is wrong, therefore are the words misenterpreted, or is god him/herself commiting a sin? I dont think that god would commit a sin, not to mention prove that he/she isn't as perfect as he/she is cracked up to be. All the anti homosexual references were more than likely added in by homophobes in the rewrite and re-publish of the bible that were disgusted by the act of homosexuallity and concidered it a diesease, but its not, its a natural trait that some people are born with. (I say born because in the animal kingdom there is homosexuallity too, not a learned characteristic but an instinct.. I havent seen alot of dogs or lions watching gay dogor lion flicks in the wild, if you have, and have proof let me know I'll subtract everything I have stated and keep quiet. ) and incase you are wondering I am not a homosexual myself, I have a wife, 5 year old son, and a daughter on the way (due april 19 yay) but do have homosexual friends, and a cousin that hasn't come out yet shhh. and I am secure with myself sexuality enough that other peoples sexual preferences dont bother me at all. and if I am hit on by the member of the same sex, I see it as a compliment not a threat as most people tend to do. all you have to do is tell him/her thanks, but no thanks Its not my cup of tea, thats it. no harm done what so ever. another reason why people get soo homophobic is because (they will never admit it anyways) they are a little bit intrigued, and scared at the same time, and do what any scared creature on earth does and lashes out against homosexuallity instinctivly, and thus ultamately this issue we discuss now arises. people just need to quit being so closed minded and open up look around, theres alot going on in life enjoy it anyway you feel suits you as an individual, cause before you know it.. its over. And while on the bible, if life is found to have lived on mars, or thriving in the underwater oceans of Eruopa, if life is supposed to exist only on earth and no where else like it hints in the bible. I wonder how religions will explain that minor discrepency. or if intellegent life is contacted in the future how it will hold up after that not to mention how church officials will explain something that is not supposed to exist at all anywhere but earth. It wont be such a chaotic situation if people were more open minded, but I doub't it will change anytime soon, and if and when this occurs if we are still alive we will be discussing here a similar situation but rather we should learn about the alien species, share knowledge, and existance with them. or since they supposedly arent real according to the good book, treat them as souless, non living creatures, and discriminate against them as homosexuals are discriminated against, and for those sympathetic to the other intelegent species are treated as outcasts as well. just like it has happened time and time again in our recorded history? hmm sounds like another heated debate/topic? well another day another time anyways. Thats just another 2 cents I tossed in for everyone.. (I hope no one tries to refund it forcefully he he he)
A lot of people live to the letter of the Bible. If you want to do that, that is fine with me, just be consistent and don't just read what suites you.
Gay people encourage their children to be gay by making out like there is nothing wrong with it. Getting married isn't an "essential right" it is a religious privelage. In the eyes of God, being gay is wrong, so why should gay people be allowed to participate in something religious? And of course I would turn down a threesome, the idea absolutely sickens me. People see lesbians as less disgusting because they can't actually have sex. I personally think they are both wrong. It's not "fear" as you put it. I hate this thing because it's "cool" to be gay that if you find being gay disgusting and wrong then you must automatically be scared of it. It's not because, God forbid, that you've actually taken a glance at the male and female bodies and distinguished that it isn't natural. I don't hate gay people, as I already said, I have a bunch of gay friends. The people are nice enough, I just ignore it when they talk about what guy they brought back to their room last night.
Thank you one of my points exactly Love the way you summerized it *no offence or sarcasm intended by this reply*
im sorry to say this but a lot of the poepole on here have jsut fallen out of my view as good people, ffs what id your son/daughter/wahtever family member came out as beign gay? ffs its nothignt o do with religion get it through your heads it is a state affair so whats the harm, the sonner people seperate government from church the better
Gay people would genereally have a civil ceremony, as do many people who are not religious. Therefore as a civil matter gay marriage is absolutely no business of the church.
I still dont see how marriage is a state affair, ahh well. I hate politics so i say, why don't we all go get some muffins and be happy
Maybe this is a difference in the US, in the UK you have a civil ceremony which doesn't have any religious content. At the end you sign the marriage certificate as you would normally and you're all done.
In Holland (as I have allready posted) we have the same. We call it a registered partnership or marriage certificate. But if you do marry in Church you have to go to the Town Hall for the certificate.
Take out the religous aspect and why is it so wrong? Again, I disagree with the whole "gay" thing, but who are we to judge if it's right or wrong? In the grand scheme of things, it can't hurt anyone or degrade the ozone layer. Which part of it is wrong? The love that 2 people would have for each other? The commitment that two people can have? The companionship? Or is it because of the sexual compnent? I think two guys being togeather is gross as hell, but I'm NOT going to judge them because of it because I do not have the right to do so. Getting married isn't an essential right, nor is it a religious privelage unless you have a religious ceremony. People get married in civial ceremonies all the time with no mention of god or his covenent with man. Yes, in the eyes of God, homosexuality is wrong, but so is pre-marital sex (sexual immorality) and is covered in around 25 passages: It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; (NIV, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-5) There are many things that people do now which in the eyes of god are wrong, injust or a sin. Many on this board are as guilty as people state homosexual people are. Taking the lords name in vain is a sin (3rd Commandment: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain - Exodus 20:7), do you work on Sunday? That's a sin (4th commandment: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy), what about the 8th commandment: Thou Shalt Not Steal? Got any mp3's, videos or software on your hdd that you haven't paid for? My point is that people only use the bible when it suits them and for their paticular purpose - plus they take it FAR to literally. How many commandments have you broken? But yet people feel they have the right to judge others when they themselves aren't without sin. My head hurts now... ::EDIT:: In addition, here in the US there are 2 seperate components to marrage: religious and civil. If you get married in a religious ceremony, you still have to do the civil part by getting the marrage license from the county records office. However, you can take religion completely out of the mix by getting married by a judge. Since most religions forbid homosexual marrage, these folk would get married by a judge taking the religious aspect completely out. Now in the eyes of God, these people will not be married, but in the eyes of the government, they will be. This is exactly how the religious and civil aspects can be removed from each other.
**Shadowspawn, you disgust me. I am so angry about what you just posted, that I don't have words to describe it. I'm glad you are an American.** So my husband disgusts you eh? That's taking an opinion a little too personal. No offense, but you're too emotional. You don't see my husband calling you disgusting because you disagree with him... I must say that I'm proud of my husband and of his opinions. He is an upstanding, moral man who goes out of his way to be kind to everyone. Just because he doesn't agree with the homosexual lifestyle is no reason to attack him so maliciously. He is entitled to his opinions whether you agree with them or not. Furthermore, We are PROUD to be Americans! *grin* My opinion about "Gay" Marriage? Marriage is Holy. Marriage was created by God for one man and one woman. Marriage is BASED in religion and that is the issue. You cannot redefine marriage just because you don't agree with the always-has-been definition and true meaning that originated with our Creator. If Marriage were a man made idea then I would feel differently. What is happening in San Francisco is ANARCHY. It is wrong. This blatant disrespect for the LAW puts America on a dangerous precipice. If you don't like a law, change it and then deal with the consequences. If your criteria for Marriage is two people loving each other, how about two brothers? Two sisters?? Brother sister??? Threesomes? Where does it end? This is the slipperly slope...Go back and do a study on ancient Rome and what aided in their downfall. It was due, in part to lack of moral restraint. http://www.fredoneverything.net/GayMarriage.shtml Here Comes The Bride, Or Maybe The Groom http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IF03H01&v=PRINT What's Wrong With Letting Same-Sex Couples "Marry?" http://www.rightnation.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=12478 Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth As for President George W. Bush Excerpt from- Shame on you American Hating Liberals Author: Tony Parsons, UK Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased. There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country - too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach. America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives. And children. Some unborn. And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter? These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11. AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination? When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism". A real war. The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell", if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe. The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived. But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting. I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that. Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange centre, oh mighty one! Remember, remember, September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America. No, do more than remember. Never forget.
So by your own admission, if someone is athiest or of another religion besides a Christian based one, it is wrong for those people to be married? Yes, moral restraint was Rome's downfall, but what business is it of our government to dictate to us what's moral or decent? I stated it before, I'm more scared by a government who tells me that something is immoral than 2 dudes or gals shacking up. It's up to SOCIETY to decide the morality of an issue, not a government. In addition, quiet_reverie, the thread is NOT about Bush's policies on the mid-east, nor is it about his ineptitude or brilliance on how he's running the country. It is about the government trying to grab more power over us.
Not any more. Just like many modern practices it might have had it's basis in religion (because let's face it, before people had a better understanding of science + evolution they all thought they'd be smote at the merest thought of blasphemy), doesn't mean it is any longer. Marriage is no longer something which religion owns, and the sooner religious people learn to accept unbelief as a normal part of everyday life we might start being a bit more tolerant of eachother. You're the one screaming blue murder, I'm prefectly at ease with the state of society.. the way I see it, I'm the richer man.
woohoo here I go for a grand total of 6 cents. *non refundable* Not allways true. Children are alot smarter than people give them props for. I have a friend whos birth mother died early in his life, and his birthfather wasnt sure obout his sexual orientation when he concieved a child with a female, he felt obligated to do the moral and right thing religiously and married his unborn childs mother without finding out what his other feelings and attractions towards other men ment to him.. or if it was just a phase. He never once cheated on his wife during their marriage, She unfortunately got in a car accident and ironically contracted AIDS from a tainted blood transfusion, plus she was also diagnosed with ovarian cancer a year after their son was born, and undergoeing chemotherapy so her immune system was pretty ravaged allready before the transfusion. she never got to see his 5th birthday sadly. After a few years of morning, and still being a male he dated women at first, not clicking with any of the women, he decided to give what he felt he wanted a shot, dated some men, fell in love, and from age 8 on up they raised my friend together,(I met him in Jr. High back in 1992, as one of the kids that picked on him, but I was the worst we faught and got my arse kicked royally for the first time ah memories) He is the not in the slightest gay, actually through high school he had his pick of any girl he wanted, and well he picked his share broke alot of hearts too. he was hit on by the few openly gay boys too, but he diddnt feel any intrigue towards a gay relationship and probably hasnt till this day. (I havent talked to him a a couple of months, he joined the marines and is in iraq) I talk to his dad(s) when I see them around. (they live up the street from me) and asked them if they ever pushed "gayness" on their son at all when he was being raised. They told me "no, not even once." then added "When "dave" moved in and became tho other parent in our family we told him that some people love another man or a another woman the same way your mommy and I did, and its normal and natural for that to happen. people are different and like different things and dont like other things, but thats another way everybody is special and different in their own special way. When you get older you may like other boys too but if you dont and like girls more thats ok too just remember that you are special and one of a kind no matter what." Needless too say I was kinda impressed by what and how they told thier son. and answered any questions he had openly and honestly when they could (meaning if he could comprehend their answer correctly depending on his age) Then I asked about if they feel they raised him compared to a normal traditional way, they are both from a traditional parental upbringing themselves by the way.. They said they tried to bring them up as they were themselves, just modified for their not so brady bunch/ozzie and harriet lifestyle. Then they added that they kept the bedroom in the bedroom, thoroughly locked to avoid any walk in surprises, kept their affection to a minimum if the could when their son was present. but being human with emotions on certain happy ocastions hugs, and and some kissing did slip, they were scared at first but they said he wasn't bothered by it, or at least diddnt show he was. I felt I asked/bothered them enough and thanked them for the info from their experiences in parenting. Personally I feel that gay parents are quite a bit more openminded and their kids usually turn out just fine, reguardless of the parental situation is. I also feel that most gay parents wont encourage their kids to becomming gay or not because its wrong to push one and not the other and they are open enough to see it as such. Unlike those unfortunate children that grow up with traditional parents that are racist and push racist beliefs on their kids who grow up racist as well. I have yet to see a gay person yell out.. kill whitey, theres a jew/ni---r fetch me a rope. nor have I seen a child utter such nonscence from a gay couple. so in otherwords they are subhuman and dont deserve to sanctify thier love and commitment with eachother, and should be outcasts from religion/religious beliefs and events, because they are different from what is considered normal? This is your personal choice/preference, and I'll respect it as well. The same way I would respect anybody's preferences reguardless on what they may be. But however lets say the shoes is on the other hand here, and someone tells you that you cant marry your fiance (a male, I assume from your handle you are a female) because both of you were born with down syndrome (not saying its true or that you were just as an example, but if you could throw in any thing really. 11 fingers, dracula teeth, CP, ect.) and the bible says its wrong for you to marry him, but you love eachother so much and want the commitment you both share to be taken to the highest level, and eternally set in stone and acknowledged as a single entity leagally, and backed up by your church, beliefs in gods words are eternal set in stone, thus cannot be broken by mortal means. but it doesnt apply to you and your fiance because of being born different, and to top it off being born different god doesnt like you, and wants nothing to do with you whatsoever? but you and your future hubby decide to get married anyways by the justice of the peace, and settle for a legal union instead because your religion or others dont approve or acknowledge you as a person let alone as a couple. Thats pretty much what is happening to almost every same sex couple that want what marriage stands for have to deal with. I know I wouldn't have the courage in their situation to put up with a world full of people that is against what comes natural to them and how they choose to live the way they live or not to. but like you said it is your personal belief that its wrong, and I am not trying to change it or anything you believe in or how to live what so ever. Just making a point that to each his/her own, if someone loves and is commited enough to get married, then its their choice, and no one should be judged, ridiculed, martered, or socially frowned apon because they are supposedly different. Same goes for laws that are based on someones beliefs and or religion, I'm sure if someone were to try and make beef the only meat you should eat because of their religion and beliefs, that would piss off quite a few people that believe the cow is sacred, then to make them eat a steak because fish is illegal, is just not cool. Glad to see you arent a homophobe, Well you do have a point on the its cool to be gay fad that seems to be the "cool" thing everyone is following. Other fads just like the current gay fad (and thankfully the macarena as well, I hated that entire fad, and allmost went psyco too ) it will pass with time. At one time equal rights for women was thought to be a fad at one time as well. I think whats happening now is allmost the same, but its homosexuals that want to be treated with equality this time around. Its pretty bad when someone can legally wed 2 cats or dogs, and its accepted even though there is no love or commitment between 2 cats or dogs. they could care less who they get nailed by when they are in heat. (I have heard of someone doing this a few years back, some old crazy lady paid for everything, including marriage licence, both a justice of the peace and church wedding services, reception, and a honeymoon.. 2 words coo coo ) good to hear. I get uncomfortable when my gay friend talk about sex details myself. I usually add my two cents in as well which are made up and off the wall in alot of ways. but it gets the point acrossed try this for the next time it happens. sorry if disgusts you which it probably will, and will do the same to your friends. let one finish a sentece and barge in before another can respond then say..
You think thats crazy? Last night my (fill in blank, husband, boyfriend, fiance) came home kinda late, and was a little tipsy since he stopped into a pub/bar after work and had a crooked smile from some crazy idea he had and wanted to try. not cluing me in on what he was thinking, the great sport that I am agreed to what he had in mind. WOW was it a treat and a half. I wont tell you too much becauseits too crazy I allmost cant believe it myself, but WOW. all I can say is that there was a clown costume, chocolate rasberry flavored lubricant, photoshopped pictures of celebreties, 3 midgets, the neighbors.. yes the whole family. including their recently departed grandmother. he said she was still warm, but I took his word for it, and a sheep or two cant recall too well memory is a ltiile fuzzy here, 3 bottles of brandy, 2 pints of tequilla, throw in an 8ball of coke, and a endless flow of methadone with sheer sexual pleasure. and WOW.. hopefully you wont need to get through the whole storry before the point gets accrossed.
**So by your own admission, if someone is athiest or of another religion besides a Christian based one, it is wrong for those people to be married? Check again. That's not what I said. I said marriage is based in religion. If a person doesn't believe in that specific religion that does not change the origin. **Yes, moral restraint was Rome's downfall, but what business is it of our government to dictate to us what's moral or decent?** That's what holds a nation together...The relationships between the people who constitute a nation rest on a moral foundation. This foundation is an indispensable part of their association and its substance determines the character of the nation and of the government under which the people choose to live. Every culture that ever existed had consensus values for morality, what is right and wrong. It is the responsibility of the people, through their elected representatives in the state and Federal legislatures – to make the laws that govern moral behavior...not the Courts. Then, the states will legislate morality, as they always have, to reflect the majority, if not consensus, values of the people. **I'm more scared by a government who tells me that something is immoral than 2 dudes or gals shacking up.** I don't care if two girls or guys shack up either. It's the REDEFINING of marriage that I have a problem with. Brian and I think homosexuals deserve benefits, ect. But they do not have the right...as a tiny minority of the population to redefine the meaning of marriage when the majority wants the defintion of marriage to stay as it always has...one man, one woman. **It's up to SOCIETY to decide the morality of an issue, not a government.** Exactly...and that's why we vote and have laws relating to morality. **In addition, quiet_reverie, the thread is NOT about Bush's policies on the mid-east, nor is it about his ineptitude or brilliance on how he's running the country. It is about the government trying to grab more power over us.** As I perused this board I came across a poster attacking the President and his policies. Since this is a message forum I believe I have the right to post my opinion...even if what I post is not agreeable to you or what you deem to be the exact subject of the thread. Take Care, Donna http://reverie.typepad.com
The MAJORITY of Americans want marriage to be defined by one man, one woman. Deal with it... If you don't take my word for it, check out the facts for yourself. There are more than enough studies, polls and opinions to back it up. Even the liberal news, sympathetic to the minority have stated this.
Deal with it? As I said above.. I don't have a problem with it. To me it seems to be religious people who can't 'deal with it'. The countries where gay marriage is legal obviously do not have the majority there, so I fail to see why America should be any different. Personally I believe statistics and polls are doctored to ensure the will of the government rings true.. it certainly wouldn't be the first time that's happened. Oh, and whilst we're at it, does this mean that I have no right to be married seeing as I do not believe in a god? Are you suggesting that my civil vows and certificate are immoral and should not be recognised? I'm sure millions of americans would disagree with that sentiment. If an athiest is a sinner, and is yet allowed to marry then a homosexual is no different. We're both going to hell anyway, so what's the big deal?
