News Fable 3 has no experience, health bar

AAAND StoneyMahoney gets +1 rep for his witty, satirical and ultimately very accurate description of my favourite genre.

 

I think you broke Joe.

 

I thought Fable II was utter ****, it showed glimpses of brilliance, like Archon's Knot, but the main game was so poor it never really captured me. Thus I have Zero interest in Fable III or any other shite Peter Molyneux is peddling these days, yes he made some great games in the 90's and now it's all gone to his head...

 

Since when did Fisher Price buy Lionhead?

 

Thanks y'all, I write real good. But seriously...

HP, XP and leveling were a solution to an ancient problem in tabletop RPGs. Actions had to be simple enough to be resolved mentally in a few seconds, so the statistics and rules of RPGs had to be streamlined:

"Alan, you are attacked from behind. Reflex save = 20, your Reflex bonus = +2, roll 18 to pass [rolls 6] you don't notice the attack. Your flat-footed AC = 12, +1 weapon so roll 11 to hit [rolls 15] you're hit, damage is 1d6+1 [rolls 5] 6 damage, you're on -1HP so you are now unconscious and bleeding. Right, next player..."

A combination of precalculated situational stats and simple status indicators like HP made table-top RPGs fast to play. Gaining XP until you level up before adjusting and recalculating those stats stops character advancement from getting in the way of the action by getting it over and done with periodically in a single session of number-crunching to be completed at the GM's discretion.

These stats first popped up in computer RPGs because they mimicked the rules of their table-top brethren and ran on very slow computers. Action complexity has obviously increased over time, just look at the mental-arithmetic unfriendly 5-figure HP maximums many RPGs have, but the basic building blocks of HP/XP/Levels have been left in place so long that now everyone has an entrenched expectation for them to be there. Any game in which they are absent 'obviously' isn't an RPG, by popular misguided definition.

With this reliance on these over-simplified stats, RPGs have crippled themselves and, despite decades of development, haven't come anywhere near fulfilling their full potential. With the calculating and graphical power of computers today, RPGs could have on-the-fly recalculation of stats every time you are hit to reflect the actual wound location and severity, complete with accurate graphical depiction, plus damage to armour affecting it's ability to protect you from repeated attacks as it weakens in specific areas. How about abilities and skills that change realistically when you use/forget them, tactics learned the hard way equating to actual changes in behaviour in later similar fights, physical statistics and appearance that change reflecting your character's past, both played and back story... the possibilities are limitless.

+1 to Molyneux for trying to push us past our own imposed limits.

(And yes, Bit Tech, I am available if you want to hire me. Seriously)

 

I've long been thinking that XP is an outdated concept and agree with Peters decision to scrap it. I wish game developers would try to think outside the box instead of beating the same ole' deadhorse, especially in MMO's, XP is the cancer thats eating away at the potential fun to be had in these games.

my 2pence worth of course.

 

experience system needs to go, it encourages repeating grinding with no thought to your actions.
But just dumbing the game down some more isnt the way forward.

@StoneyMahoney, some games have tried some of what you have said and in reality it doesnt work well.
skills that decrease because you havent used them in a while? Would just force people to keep track on what skill they had use and when to make sure it wouldnt decrease, again yet another grind like experience.
Games have been during armour degradation for ages just not the graphical side of it.

I think learning real tactics and skills in a game is better then some made up ones in a game, you mentioned it in your last sentence. You would have to notice how different enemies fought in different ways and the best way with dealing with them.
And no not just Enemy A has high physical resistance use a magic based weapon, thats a poor excuse of a way making a enemy and the fight interesting.
Instead have some act more like stalkers, biding their time, tracking you for ages if necessary until its the best time to strike, ie when your low in health or already fighting something else. Im fed up of seeing all the monsters in games come blindly running at you or queuing up to get slaughtered.

 

It doesn't make a difference. From what Molyneux says Followers is just a new term for XP. You'll just grind that system because there's no real difference between:

Kill 3 monsters, get 5 XP
and
Kill 3 monsters, get 2 followers.

It's all just economies - and there's nothing wrong with that. XP, followers, levels, humanity gauges, etc, these are all valid ways of charting player progression. The problem with grinds and XP is how the system is used and allowing players to repeat little events to grind it and so on.

 

Consider that Peter Molyneux was the guy with the idea to give us a 360 degree rotating view of falling piece of bird **** in Fable 2. There is no such thing as too stupid with him.

 

Its funny people are mentioning pen and paper RPGs because I was playing Fabled Lands, a game book series form the '90s, just before reading this article. If it was to be made into a video game and it would pound all other RPGs into the dirt.

http://flapp.sourceforge.net

 

@StoneyMahoney

check out the systems being developed for Dwarf fortress. they are getting pretty detailed, especial the damage model, which is actually pretty damn realistic. the leveling system also tries to stay sane, with no over all xp, but every skill having its own xp. there is still a lot wrong with it, but since it is still under development there is plenty of room to grow. i am actually going to copy your little rant over to the forums there to get some discussion going. hop on over if you would like.


link here: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=49472.0

 

Shouldn't these people start school before they are allowed to be interviewed?

 

Ugh. More from this useless man. He creates games with over-hyped features that only thinly mask the cookie-cutter boring crap beneath - and then claims that they're 'revolutionary". Fable1 didn't revolutionize jack and was about as inspired as the load I just flushed (and only mildly more entertaining). I never played Fable 2 (I know I know - don't knock it til you try it) but a quick perusal of Lionhead's site lists a dog companion as a "groundbreaking addition," and the ability to use multiple hand weapons, bows, and magic as a new combat system that the game "pioneers." Seriously?

Taking out the xp and health bars isn't going to make this game a unique and beautiful flower. It's going to be the same old crap with a big sticker that says "NEW AND INNOVATIVE" without actually being any such thing.

Fable 1 didn't revolutionize jack, Fable 2 didn't revolutionize jack, and Fable 3 won't revolutionize jack. And boy is Jack pissed about it - he wants some revolutionizing already!

And yes, this is a stupid rant, no I don't have to play it if I don't like it, blah blah blah. I get it. I just get incredibly annoyed when someone markets themselves as being innovative when they do something that has been done before or is so pointless or minor as to not be worth hyping. It's like a toddler who finally discovers how to flush the toilet and thinks he's just the cleverest boy in the whole world...

 

I was gonna post pretty much the exact same thing earlier, +rep for saving me the hassle.

 

hahah the song is priceless, I can see some fat guy pressing refresh and watching videos, then back to solitaire =] you know that's what they are going to be selling in about 2 years they will make sure your character is bi-sexual too

 

@nukeman8: I suppose the rate at which skills rise/fall is quite a difficult balance to strike, especially if tactical needs change substantially later in the game. Maybe needs some kind of periodic "refresher" you can use like a respec to boost a neglected skill up a bit.

My suggestion is that moves hit the same area (if not exactly the same spot) and when armour in specific areas is badly damaged then attacks to those areas have less damage reduction, with visual damage cues for the player to keep track of. I don't know if that's been done, I've been a little lax in playing new games recently. Damn this recession...

I just finished playing through Zelda Wind Waker, and it's a great example of progress by actual experience. New bits of gear means more avenues of attack, but it's up to you to explore them and figure out what's most effective.

Yeah, the Kung-Fu film stylee take-a-number-and-queue tactic or blindly charging mobs are lowest common denominator when it comes to bad guy behavior and I'm not a fan either. However, the idea of opportunists stealthily following you could be difficult to get right, smells to much of insta-death to me and that's really irritating.

 

good grief, next games will start mimicking real life!! >.>

Its the health bar and little numbers that helps me differentiate between the two

 

Not sure if anyone here as heard of or played Mortal Online, but it has a nifty little system that steps forward a bit.

No character levels or character XP, instead you level up individual attributes. And they are specific. You can level up how fast you walk, how long you can hold your breath, how good you are with swords on horses, etc. It maintains the tried and true system of gaining experience, but mitigates it into a much more intimate system.

Also, health bars do not display numbers (at the present UI, though I believe this is intended to stay). You also don't see how much you hit for (unless you level the skill!) so attacks are either a lot less red bar on the screen, or a little less red bar. It makes difficulties of enemies impossible to judge and combat far more intuitive rather than number based, yet still provides enough information to make intelligent and informed decisions.

 

I prefer an XP system that is based on the skills you use. Dungeon Siege did that it a very simple way and that was kinda cool.

What I would like to see... the longer my character uses an axe for example, I should become more proficient in weilding axes and be able to user higher level axes. Substitute axe for any number of things including certain spell classes and you get my drift.

 

Ah, but then you most likely have to deal with another stunningly illogical gaming device. The Levelled List.