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Electronics HELP-Complex Control Circuit-Pump PeltPSU Fans Comp LCD

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Buck_Rogers25, 15 Feb 2004.

  1. Buck_Rogers25

    Buck_Rogers25 Minimodder

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    I stupidly type this entire thing out earlier then hit preview instead of submit :wallbash: .

    I've been planning my new cooling system for quite a while now and the parts are slowly starting to arrive, now so its time to turn my attention to the control system i want to control startup,shutdown and emergency shutdown of all the things connected to my comp. I'll briefly outline the parts involved and the problems i'm having.

    Crystalfontz 633 LCD
    Pelt PSU - 12-15v variable output 40A PSU to power one 220 and one 80 watt pelt
    Eheim 1260 Pump
    Fans - 3 Delta 120s and 4 80mm papst
    Flow Circuit
    And the circuits which im now trying to figure out.

    [​IMG]

    Now the question is how to get it all to work together, im no master with relays, and switching the AC line on the pelt PSU with a relay isnt an option as im not paying for a 40a rated relay. I keep thinking that two 555 timers and two latching relays would probably do it but im not master like i say. Cant figure out how to get the mobo power header line to do all the things i need
    So i need to:
    A> press power lcd for start pulse,Start The pump and fans with relay1,3minutes,then the pelt psu,10seconds,then the comp power-on pulse
    B>Shutdown, shut everything down on comp shutdown

    [​IMG]

    Now that could be WAYYYY off the mark, and i know that doesnt take into account the pulse nature of the power header at all, but after reading a half dozen different 'relay for pump' guides im still fumbling in the dark. I had considered trying to fit this flow switch in aswell, but i'm not entirely sure how to :sigh: .

    Hopefully someone with laugh at my idiocy for a few minutes then be able to steer me the right way, i dont expect anyone to rough out a diagram or anything like that, not for something this complex anyway, but i could really do with some help.

    Now all i have to do is hope Macro or one of the other bit gods has some spare time to read through all this :).
     
  2. Buck_Rogers25

    Buck_Rogers25 Minimodder

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    I think i may have worked out a better circuit that can incorporate the waterflow ESDS system by using pulse latching solenoids, much cheaper than relays but i still need someone to say uhhh your an insane fool or change this and it will work :).

    [​IMG]
     
  3. ConKbot of Doom

    ConKbot of Doom Minimodder

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    First off, since there it the variable psu for the pelts, 40Ax15V is only 600W so divide that by 240v and you get 2.5A. A 3 A relay should be cheap. So your all good there.

    As for the delays, 555's could be used for the shorter (10s) one but 4 min using a 555 would get a bit sketchy. (never the same twice)

    I'm a little confused by the block diagram, but what you want is for you to hit the Power button, all the cooling comes on, then 10 seconds later the comp turns on?

    But on power off you want the fans + WC to stay on for 4 minutes?

    Do I have that right?

    EDIT: some ideas

    use this, Cooling After as a timer/ switch for you post cooling

    Still run the PSU to the motherboard, but use an optoisolater or relay to connect the green on the mobo side of the Cooling After ("CA") to ground when the comp psu is on, when it cuts off, that should cut power to the mobo, side, but the PSU side green wire should still be connected to ground, use an opto isolater and a 5v line so that when that is on, the optolater is "on" Hook that to a mosfet, and the mosfet to the relays for the pump, and Pelt PSU.

    Using a 555 for the 10 sec delay, hook up the power button so that it starts the 555, and connects the green on the mobo side of the CA to ground, so it starts up, turning on the cooling, and 10 sec later, the 555 "hits" the power switch on the mobo.

    I'll work on a block diagram and post it later.
     
    Last edited: 18 Feb 2004
  4. Buck_Rogers25

    Buck_Rogers25 Minimodder

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    Opposite way round m8, the sequence would be.
    1>Press Power on LCD
    2>Pump and Fans turn on aswell as Flow Relay
    3>4 minute timer to allow fans to cool the water in circulation down to its lowest possible before turning on Peltiers by turning on the Pelt PSU
    4>The 10 second timer is activated by the out from the 4 minute timer and allows the peltiers 10 seconds to start cooling before the last pulse is sent to the mobo header turning on the comp.

    On power off from the LCD the first solenoid would unlatch and everything would go off at the same time, well in theory.

    I had wondered if a 555 would be able to do 4 minutes, at this point i may ditch everything abover in favour of a PIC microcontroller circuit, but i have absolutely NO knowledge of PIC or PIC programming.
     
  5. Pandalet

    Pandalet What's a Dremel?

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    Cue TheAnimus, our resident PIC fanatic :cooldude: :hehe:
     
  6. TheAnimus

    TheAnimus Banned

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    i prefer J'aid, that way i get a bunch of ever lasting virgins when i die.

    Yup, small micro would be my wepon. But if you don't have a draw full of samples, you could use a 555, with a 8 bit counter chip to devide down your time interval ie for 4 mins, using a 128 devide, would need a 1.875 sec square wave.

    I also take it you know about switching a relay from TTL levels (ie diode + driver transistor).
     
  7. Buck_Rogers25

    Buck_Rogers25 Minimodder

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    Like i said at the begining of this topic, relays scare me hehe :). But i'm willing to do and learn whatevers needed.
    I've also started this thread over at Crystalfontz in hope they may have some ideas which has led me down the PIC path further really, starting to do some research into it now but i can see already its not gonna be an easy task.
     
  8. Buck_Rogers25

    Buck_Rogers25 Minimodder

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    Ok after doing some more reading up PICs although a very elegant option are way out of my price range right now, so i turned my attention TTL relays. Now if i understood the few examples i found whilst searching correctly something like this should work.

    [​IMG]

    The TTL and standard relays are marked.
    Now the ??? are for two reasons.

    The ??? top right is something i've been looking into after the suggestion from Crystalfontz about using a Pulse Outputting Flow Meter to display Liters/min on the LCD by using one of the fan headers RPM lines. But an afterthough was what if the same POFlowMeter couse be used in Ron Wlock's ESDS Circuit instead of the magnetic reed switch which is currently used in the circuit. I think it's possible but i have e-mail Ron and am waiting for a reply. If i cant intgrate the POFlowMeter into the ESDS circuit then i will still add it, but it will mean having a second third inline joint for my watercooling, reducing flow by about 4%, and obviously will just be to get the liters/min display on the LCD.

    The ??? pointing to the Low Pulse Generator is another thing i now need help with. After the relay behind closes there will be no pulse from the power line it latches as that was used on the TTL relay before that. The mobo header will have no power to the header and think your still holding the power button down, then it will have power and think 'ah hes released the power button' and wait for you to press it. So the low pulse generator needs to allow the current from the the relay to pass through to the mobo for five seconds to get it to think 'ah hes released it', then pulse low for 1 seconds,'ah hes pressed it', then go back to live continuous.

    So it would need to do:
    5 second high
    1 second low
    continuous high

    Now how exactly can i do that is the question.

    I wish i had enough for a PIC starter kit, read through the couple they have on farnell and rapid really would be so much more elegant, just have the the power line come in from the LCD Power on one pin, out on another to the Mobo power, 2 other pins for the relays, pins for voltage/gnd and a little programming. Spent so much cash on this though.....god i'm tempted.
     
  9. TheAnimus

    TheAnimus Banned

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    price range for getting into PIC programing is about
    $8, i sugest you get yourself a smelly dull coloured rug, and sit on a street courner.

    Google JDM Programmer
    Google MPLAB download

    That should tell u everything u need :)
     
  10. Ben

    Ben What's a Dremel?

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    This it probably quite stupid but where is the power coming from to power the lcd and the 5v TTL thing.
     
  11. Buck_Rogers25

    Buck_Rogers25 Minimodder

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    Was 100£ for the PIC starter kit on rapid hehe cheers for that man. Building one of these is a damn site cheaper then that kit hehe. Ok so assuming i decide to go with the PIC method i get what PIC ? 16C84 seems a common choice and has enough I/Os for my purpose, but having a look at the voltage for some they seem around the 2.2v range. Some much more complicated PICs operate on a 4.2-5.5v which would be ideal to tie it to the 5vATX/LCD. Cant seem to find a V rating for the 16C84, sure i can if i search a bit harder.So what then i spend sometime learning how to program it.

    Which would be something like:
    on pin1 low-pulse1, pin4 live
    wait 4 minutes
    pin 5 live
    wait 10 seconds
    pin 6 live for 5 seconds, pin6 low for 1 second, pin6 live continuous
    (and) on pin1 low-pulse2, pin4/pin5/pin6 low

    And the wiring after i've programed it and put it in the circuit would be something like:
    [​IMG]

    So is that about right is there something i'm missing ?
     
  12. Buck_Rogers25

    Buck_Rogers25 Minimodder

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    The ATX5v pin, pin19 or something, powers the LCD in sleep mode and theres a 5v tag on the edge of the LCD as a pull down for other uses. Hence the 5vATX/LCD in diagrams.

    The TTL relays are switched by very low current (3v) and respond to a 80ms low pulse to close the contacts. First TTL switches the ATX5v for other relays in the circuit, second TTL switches the 'mobo power header' line which is 3.3v, enough to close the relays.
     
  13. TheAnimus

    TheAnimus Banned

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    a PIC16F84A is a common choice, but often for the wrong reasons!

    I would check microchip's website and sample a (or 3):

    PIC12F629
    PIC16F870
    PIC16F84A
    PIC16F877

    everything you've mentioned should be possible on the 8 pin 12F629 (the 'F' denotes flash re-programable memory)
     
  14. Buck_Rogers25

    Buck_Rogers25 Minimodder

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    I read through the pdf's for the PICs you suggested on the microchip site and i think your right the 12F629 is adequate for my purpose as i only need 4 GP I/O pins. I've also decided to use one in the modifications to the ESDS circuit i'm making to take the pulse from the PFO Meter in and then another pin out to the latching relay of the ESDS. So i'll be ordering a few 12F629s and the parts necessary to build the PIC programmer link you directed me to. Can i assume that programmer will work with the 12F629 ? Was'nt listed after checking again.

    Also i got an e-mail back from Ron, ESDS circuit creator, and he kindly pointed me to exactly the 'pulse outputting flow meter' i need, will work in the ESDS circuit aswell as allow me to use its RPM out to the LCD Fan4 RPM header to monitor flow rate through the LCD.

    The two things left i'm unsure of are the Pelt PSU switch relay and the Voltage regulator. Switch relay because i will have to test the voltage and current to the switch with a multimeter before picking the correct relay.

    The voltage regulator because i'm not sure what voltage regulator with allow me take a 12v default in, with a 12v control voltage(if theres no load on the regulator line this would be the out voltage), and then a regulator in coming from the LCDs fan1 header output. So when the circuit receives 12v it outs at 12v then later when the regulator pin goes live the voltage would be regulated to that. Search of rapid will probably find what i'm looking for but there may not be a voltage regulator in this arrangement, in which case i'm not sure what i'm going to do.

    Cheers for all the advice btw, very nearly ready to order up all the parts for the circuits now.
     
  15. TheAnimus

    TheAnimus Banned

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    hurm good point as to wether the 12F629 works with the JDM, the JDM uses a kinda naughty way to get the Vpp (The voltage required to turn the PIC into programming mode) and the 12Fxxx series are very fussy about that.

    Each motherboard seams to have a differn't idea about which voltage to implement for RS-232C communication (and the specification says anything between 5v and 19v or somthing stupid). As such for some people the 12F629 will program fine, but for others it won't, might be worth while picking up a 16F84A aswell just incase.

    These both have internal oscillators, so there is no need for an external resinator source.

    You should also buy a tantilum beed capacitor, and put it across the power supply (but almost every PIC tutorail on the net tells you this, see www.piclist.com for a good starting place, but a very bad site design).
     
  16. Buck_Rogers25

    Buck_Rogers25 Minimodder

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    Well in that case i'll get both both and just see what works.
     
  17. Hazer

    Hazer In time,you too will be relixalated

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    I definately agree about the 12F seies. No need to get more than you need. But one thing to mention: If you plan to turn on high voltage/current stuff with it, you wil still need a couple of relays. The fans/pump/flow should use standard relays. The peltier should be turned on using the powerOK on the PSU ATX plug. You shouldnt need a relay for that, a simple analog switch (ex-74HC4051) will do nicely.
     
  18. Buck_Rogers25

    Buck_Rogers25 Minimodder

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    Relays are already shown in that last diagram Hazer. And as for the peltier turning on using the ATX plug, yes if i wanted the pelts and comp to come on at the same time that would be fine, but i dont as ive already said, a 10 second delay to allow the pelts to cool before power on, think you must have missed that bit.

    And although an analog switch or even an opto-isolator would do the trick in-place of the Pelt PSU switch relay currently shown in the diagram, the Pelt PSU is a beefy 40A bench unit and until i know exactly what voltage/current is going to its switch and whether a smaller IC type component will handle it i will stick with the relay, although i will take a look at that switch you suggested.
     
    Last edited: 22 Feb 2004
  19. Hazer

    Hazer In time,you too will be relixalated

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    What I meant: I never meantioned the PC PSU. Im assuming your using 2 PSUs, one for the PC and one for the peltier.

    What I mean by using an analog switch is that the PSU turns on by grounding the PowerOK (pin 14 green wire) on the ATX plug. By cutting that wire and splicing it to the analog IC, you dont need the relay. Then again, it really doesnt matter. You said you didnt like relays, so I meantioned a way to reduce how many of them.
     
  20. Buck_Rogers25

    Buck_Rogers25 Minimodder

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    I understand m8, but your still turning the Pelts on at the same time as the comp by using the PowerOK ATX pin, and i'm looking for a ten second delay like i said. And again like i said an analog switch will still work in place of the relay in the current circuit design, im not willing to commit to using an analog until i know it can handle the PeltPSU switch current.

    Last thing is this 'pulse outputting flow meter' and how to wire it into Ron's ESDS circuit. The output from the flow meter replaces the output for the reed switch in his current circuit design, obviously the PFOmeter is a pulse output though, and aswell as taking that to one of the LCDs fan RPM headers i need to convert it to a stable voltage before going into the ESDS's latching relay. Question is should i use a 'LM2917N8 frequency to voltage converter' , or should i program another PIC. on Pin1 pulse, set pin2 live / on Pin1 low, set pin2 low. PICs seems a bit un-necessary if the LM is ok but i might do it just for the practice.
     
    Last edited: 23 Feb 2004

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