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"Keep the guvmint out of my medicare!": Insurance Lobby Organizes Elderly Hecklers

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Prestidigitweeze, 11 Aug 2009.

  1. Prestidigitweeze

    Prestidigitweeze "Oblivion ha-ha" to you, too.

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    First, the most fascinating item: A pseudo-activist website created by an insurance company lobbying firm, which features a list of future pro-insurance company demonstrations, in which pseudo-activists will be expected to disrupt various health care reform events, including town meetings allowing local citizens to voice their views:

    http://www.cprights.org/townhalls.php

    Elsewhere in the news: An example of such an event, in which one of the senior protestors waves a sign bearing the unconscious witticism, "Keep the guvmint out of my medicare":

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nggq31L8zWw

    In an amazing example of right-wing mirroring, suggestible out-of-state goons travel to local events to interfere with local citizens who wish to engage in the health care debate: Giant hulking insurance companies and their attendant republican valets engage lobbying firms to orchestrate puppet demonstrations using the techniques of civil disobediance to silence working class discourse instead of insure it.

    In an even more ironic twist, the people who are brainwashed into doing this prove to be poor and subliterate senior citizens -- the very people who might benefit most from Obama's health care reforms, and possibly add time to the span of their fleeting lives.
     
    Last edited: 11 Aug 2009
  2. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    This is one of the many reasons why I rarely attend family gatherings anymore. At some point in time, my brother and sister became right-wing fundamentalists, and my father - despite being a die-hard Democrat, and old - isn't particularly keen on Obama.

    Lately, family gatherings descend into rant-fests when my brother inevitably throws the spark of debate on the table in the form of a snarky comment about the issue of the day. Usually, either my father or sister will take the bait and the spark ignites the powder keg. My sister is exactly the kind of person you see in these demonstrations. She never misses an opportunity to jump on her soap box and turn what could be a civil discussion into a contest to see who can yell the loudest. Histrionics and emotive arguments are a given. I can almost predict the exact moment when she'll declare Obama a Socialist, then insist that we'll descend into Anarchy, Nazism, or Communism, whichever is on her mind that day.

    As a result, I've become burned out on the whole affair. I now decline dinner invites because I have better things to do than to hear about how Obama is taking our guns away, and that public, non-Catholic schooling will destroy my child.

    -monkey
     
    TheMusician likes this.
  3. C-Sniper

    C-Sniper Stop Trolling this space Ądmins!

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    My favorite part are the right-wingers saying that when we ask the hecklers to be quiet and have them escorted out that we are infringing on the 1st admendment rights. This is the EXACT SAME thing they did when Democrats were protesting the war.

    What America needs right now is for most of the baby boomers in power to die off so that our political system can actually move forward.
     
  4. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I'm too old and cynical to get wound up about it anymore. People get the government, education, social and health care they deserve. Darwin must be chuckling in his grave.

    As for family: blood is not thicker than water. It just makes nastier stains and is harder to wash out.
     
  5. TheMusician

    TheMusician Audio/Tech Enthusiast/Historian

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    I agree. Look at them. Shouting like baboons about something they don't understand.

    So many Americans think everything is so simple; I know so many sheep yelling "SOCIALISM!" when A) they don't know what Socialism is, B) they don't realize that we already have socialized areas of our society, such as police and fire departments.

    If you're uninsured in the US, and you come down with cancer, you're dead. I think that some form of government assistance should exist. Maybe not all-out universal healthcare, (though it might work: my Canadian and British cousins find their systems to be very efficient) but something.
     
  6. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    the British NHS has its problems, but working in cancer care myself I can confidently say that when it comes to the Big C, the NHS friggin' rocks. :rock: I've seen people get £50.000,-- worth of state-of-the-art, life-saving treatment without having to worry about paying a penny --it is all covered through our tax contributions.

    National health care: it just works. Efficienty, effectively, equally.
     
  7. eddie_dane

    eddie_dane Used to mod pc's now I mod houses

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    that made me giggle.

    Concentration of power is what needs to be avoided be it in government or in private market healthcare. At least in the market, there are 17,000 options. I don't understand why this can't be done on a state level, why we ALL have to do it. Move to Massachusetts or adopt that system if it's what you want, that's the beauty of the federalist system. And don't give me any "economy of scale" argument, there is no evidence that the federal government has ever been able to achieve that, quite the opposite.
     
    Last edited: 11 Aug 2009
  8. Combinho

    Combinho Ten kinds of awesome

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    I think you're far better off with a decent level of healthcare for all, rather than a choice of a million treatments with similar outcomes, as well as that other option - not getting any healthcare at all. Choice in healthcare is way overrated, especially in the US, where it is used as an excuse not to provide universal healthcare, which should be a given for any modern society.
     
  9. Furymouse

    Furymouse Like connect 4 in dagger terms

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    Family- Enemies you have to share Thanksgiving with :thumb:

    Nexxo I am curious to know, in all seriousness, what is the healthcare system like on your side? There are plenty of stories out there saying its both better and worse and I would just like to hear what you thought of it, as an eyewitness per se.

    I am one of those lucky people over here who has great insurance provided through my employer and local hospitals that are quite nice. But before I worked here I was without insurance, and yes I did get quite ill during that time. I found a doctor, with big signs proclaiming " We don't accept insurance." in more than one language, so you know they're good. Moral of the story being that I was able to find affordable, decent care with not very much effort.

    So my question then is, what is there to gain from this? There is available care for those without insurance and costing only slightly more than a copay. And for terminal/extended illnesses, insurance or no, goverment healthcare or not, it is going to be expensive.


    Edit: And for using people who don't know whats going on as pawns in your protest..
    Say it aint so
    hardly atypical it would seem
     
    Last edited: 11 Aug 2009
  10. Combinho

    Combinho Ten kinds of awesome

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    What has to happen in the UK is rationing of services, so you can't always get the latest and greatest treatments. What happens is that NICE decides which treatments are cost effective (the opposite of the US, where places will sometimes push expensive treatments that aren't more effective so they get paid more). What this means in practice, is that everyone will get a good standard of healthcare, no matter what their background, but the quality of treatment may not always be as good as you could get privately. Of course, if you really want that, health insurance is availible, and offered by some employers here, where you are more likely to get more expensive treatments (or not, as the doctors are often the same people).
     
  11. Sir Digby

    Sir Digby The Supprising Adventures

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    17,000 options are wonderful except when you can't afford any of them. The NHS, for all its quirks, is one of the few things that make me extremely proud to be British.

    Besides you'll still have the choice to use private healthcare and have health insurance , it only means that you're paying a small amount extra to help those who really need the help.
     
  12. thehippoz

    thehippoz What's a Dremel?

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    I have what you would call perfect insurance.. I could jump off a building with cancer and get a lung transplant at standford.. hell throw in a heart too =] not owe anything but 5 bucks for my prescriptions

    but people without good insurance.. it sucks hard.. only thing wouldn't want to see is hospitals here degrade into what like canada has.. the argument is if the drug companies don't have incentives they won't innovate and that kinda makes sense.. on the other side of that coin, it really prevents them from comming up with actual cures- imagine you are the guy that cured cancer.. you would get stuft in a pipe somewhere and all your research destroyed by the drug companies who make money hand over fist on keeping people alive pushing their drugs

    I really like the healthcare system, but I look at it through my own beer goggles.. and what about the employers who are getting reeped by health insurance for their employees.. alot will just drop coverage on everyone and let the gov healthcare take over.. no big deal for a young guy but it may effect the elderly who are covered also from previous employers
     
  13. Combinho

    Combinho Ten kinds of awesome

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    Drug companies still have the incentives, a nationalised healthcare system still does have to pay the drug companies to use their products. Maybe if rationing (see post about NICE) were introduced, the drug companies would stop screwing over the hospitals and insurance companies by charging ridiculous amounts for their drugs.

    Whilst you may have great insurance, there are many who have no insurance at all. That more than 'sucks hard'. Many of these people earn minimum wage or thereabouts, so cannot afford even basic healthcare, and as a result will not see a doctor unless absolutely necessary. In such circumstances, a cure for cancer would be irrelevant as cancer would not be diagnosed until said person was severely ill, by which point it would be too late.

    America really needs to drop its Cold War mentality. Yes universal healthcare is Socialism. Guess what, socialism is a good thing, it ensures that the less well off don't get left to rot in a gutter somewhere.

    On a side note, why do people (especially Americans if the media is to be believed) seem to confuse Socialism with Communism and Communism with Fascism. It's really not that complex. America itself is closer to Fascism than Socialism is.
     
  14. thehippoz

    thehippoz What's a Dremel?

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    well we do have the best healthcare system in the world.. people come from all over the world to get treated here.. and I know the reason why it's like this.. *drum roll* the outrageous amounts of money the 'best' institutions charge to get treated there.. went to standford for my girlfriends ph and they charged kaiser (insurance company) 7k for a 30 minute visit where all the doctor did was ask us some sex questions.. what a job!

    same with the drug companies.. they put pricetags on some drugs in the thousands for one 30 day supply- now say you have quite a few people on this.. it's millions of dollars your talking about.. but it keeps medicine on the cutting edge- like I said looking at this through my eyes where it's all free- but it's damn good.. and I don't have to wait to get something done

    can get anything done like right now if needed.. no waiting list.. simple referal and I can go to the best institutions too.. if I was on gov healthcare do you think that would be possible? I don't think so.. just hope employers don't drop coverage- but I see no incentive for them not to
     
  15. Sir Digby

    Sir Digby The Supprising Adventures

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    Quite

    In the comments on HardOcp for the story of cameras being placed in homes there was this
    :wallbash:
     
  16. Combinho

    Combinho Ten kinds of awesome

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    I'm not denying that the U.S. healthcare system isn't very good. I's how it works that I don't like. I'm a big fan of universal healthcare, the NHS is what I'm most proud of my country for. Sure it has its problems (many of them, I've worked there and am going to spend my life there), and things aren't as shiny as in the states, but universal healthcare comes with a price, and I'm certain that price is worth every single penny. Private healthcare is still availible. For a very interesting article on the topic (in the U.S.A.) see here.

    Edit: @ Digby - I wish that the Quadrant idea of the political spectrum was the more common version, as it would save a lot of confusion. Monitoring of the populace isn't Left or Right wing, it's authoritarian. There are two classifications, Left vs. Right wing, Authoritarian vs. Anarchist. It's that simple.
     
    Last edited: 11 Aug 2009
  17. Scirocco

    Scirocco Boobs, I have them, you lose.

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    I've been reading and watching about this subject lately. At times it's another situation where I can only shake my head. Some of the "points" brought up by the protesters are ridiculous. The so-called "Obama Death Panel" and senior citizens alarmed that their Medicare (government healthcare for seniors) will be taken away, all the while decrying the proposed health plan as socialist, just make me laugh. Sarah Palin has jumped into the fray, stating she doesn't want the government deciding to kill her poor down-syndrome child.

    Having been both with private health insurance and without, plus now on Medicare for disability, I've witnessed denial of coverage for perfectly legitimate claims as well as having to shoulder the entire cost of a life or death medical situation. A government program to act as a baseline with private insurance for those who choose to and can afford it is the best of both worlds in my book.

    As far as those ignorant types that cry "socialism," it really confuses them when you bring up police and fire protection, as those would fall under their definition of socialism as well. ;P
     
  18. yodasarmpit

    yodasarmpit No longer the other Brett.

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    It's by no means perfect, but the NHS is something I'm actually proud of in the UK.

    A place where no matter your income, you will receive some of the best medical care in the world, all for a small contribution from your pay each month.

    How anyone can think this is a bad thing is beyond me, unless you have a vested interest in the business of selling medical care.
     
  19. Rum&Coke

    Rum&Coke What's a Dremel?

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    Echoing the fact the NHS is pretty much my main pride in Britain, also weirdly the American system helps us understand why it is so so great. If you care about "socialism" grow up you big babby the world isn't divided into "capitalism" and "communism", if so you'd be paying firefighters, police, roads you use, defence costs etc... personally.

    I was this cynical and keep wanting to revert back to it but its too easy. People do not get the governance they "deserve", it single handedly vindicates every dictator out there. Our power structure entrusts certain functions to be administrated as a public body because it simply doesn't work better any other way (see above, include health care). The super-rich mafia known as the "free market" is the biggest lie ever perpetrated on the west and the more it can be destroyed brick by brick the better our lives will be.

    I agree here entirely but watch this
    Wrong! The free market is an illusion of choice, not a literal one. Whilst there may be "17,000" options there are probably about 5-8 main companies that own them all, and they're all BFFs because what profits one company profits them all. They'll price gouge everything, set ridiculous "pre-existing condition" agreements for every damn one of those options and will fight you at every turn. You literally have no idea how bad you'll be tomorrow, you could fall in the bath tub, break your neck, be paralysed for the next decades and there isnt a single profit based organisation that will do anything but provide the bare contractual limits in as short time frame as possible. Their business model is to have you pay them, not to use the damn insurance!

    Firstly have you ever moved? Was it fun simple 1-2-3 process? If you've not give it a try the next time your state does something you disagree with rather than staying and trying to fix it rather than running away. National systems work far better, just ask the southern states (since you inhabit one), who may harp on about gubbamint taxes but actually have 9/10 of the top federal funding receivers while bitching about the northern liberals that include the top 8/10 states that pay the most and received the least funding. God DAMN it America, there is NOTHING wrong with admitting you are not a rich, there is nothing wrong with leaning on the people who have money because the people who have a lot of money GOT THERE because the people with little money actually bought their ****.

    Split up into 50 different armies, 50 different central banks, 50 different trading agreements and let me know how y'all do (hint: terribly). Doing things in numbers means it costs less per person this is such a basic concept. If its something everyone needs then doing it in large numbers is the best way. And if you think that your health care will be ran similar to "the DMV!" where your most critical function is owning a car then lollllllllllllll
     
  20. Prestidigitweeze

    Prestidigitweeze "Oblivion ha-ha" to you, too.

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    Rum&Coke:

    To paraphrase your excellent observation:

    If people truly get the governance they deserve, then every dictator in history has been vindicated.

    You've explained the only reason to remain an activist in places like the States: To affirm by one's very existence that fine-print democracies are corporate-run dictatorships with great PR. That's one of the reasons I'm still here.

    (It also explains why supermonkey's aversion to down-home atavism has led to tentative research into pursuing citizenship elsewhere: representing the fairer alternative isn't always worth it for harassed individuals.)

    In situations like this, the mass hallucination of a free country never quite takes. A significant percentage of the population, however demoralized, always knows better. Thus, North American citizens deserve true democracy, universal health care and sufficient education to separate practical variables from charged symbols and ad hominem barking.

    Nexxo's weariness of this debate is completely understandable: He's a passionate romantic attempting to tell himself that love isn't worth it. His sustained eloquence on these boards is proof he's burdened by that commitment.
     

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