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News Microsoft pulls Windows RT 8.1 over boot bug

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Gareth Halfacree, 21 Oct 2013.

  1. Nexxo

    Nexxo Stopped treating this country as if it was his own

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    Microsoft had no other choice. Since OSX, iOS and Android, people are used to getting shiny new improvements in their OS every year. Coupled with the fact that it has to ensure that their OS works on, like, a million different configurations of PCs with components and accompanying drivers ranging from brand names to dodgy cheap Taiwanese knock-offs, it has quite a task cut out. Give them time to adjust.
     
  2. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    The choice they had was to follow the crowd, or keep doing what made them the #1 OS used in both the corporate and home environment. And that is release generally stable well tested updates, it used to be a rare thing for an update to cause problems now it seems buggy updates is something we should expect for the foreseeable future.
     
  3. Nexxo

    Nexxo Stopped treating this country as if it was his own

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    Sure, generally stable, well tested updates. :worried:

    You mean that home environment that imploded so hard around a dense core of tablets that PC sales hit an all-time low (for which Microsoft was also blamed, incidentally)?

    Look, I get that you're upset that Windows 8 went all weird on you with that newfangled Metro touch interface, but the world of computing is changing, and if Microsoft still wants to be relevant in a decade's time, it has to find a response to that. Apart from that, it's change as it ever was, with new bugs emerging in updates as the old ones of previous releases are ironed out. 't Was ever so.
     
  4. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Trying to compare upgrading from Vista (well known for problems) to Windows 7 and claiming that proves in the past they didn't release generally stable well tested updates is so far of the mark as to be laughable, especially when its two problems compared to the 8 problems so far being experienced by people doing nothing more than installing a glorified service pack.
    Yes the same home environment that has seen 76% year on year growth for Steam, and still accounts for some of the 81 Million units world wide (aprox), compared to the 45 Million units (aprox) of tablets, and has seen the graphics market increased 4.6% in Q2 2013.
    If anything the mass reporting of PC sales hitting an all time low, that so many people like to regurgitate says more about the state of the major OEM's than anything about actual desktop PC usage.
    My personally feelings have nothing to do with Microsoft aping Apple and Google's release cycle and bug ridden software releases, you only have to look at the problem without your rose tinted 8 glasses to see releasing buggy updates causes nothing but harm both to the company and their customers. This faster release cycle and lack of testing is affecting more than your beloved 8/8.1
     
  5. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Not entirely sure those figures are accurate: over what period are you tracking sales, there? IDC's forecast for the next quarter - the oh-so-lucrative Christmas period - suggests 83.1m desktop/laptop sales to 84.1m tablets. That translates to 2013 shares in the 'connected smart devices' market (no, seriously, that's the category name, says so right here) of 20.2 per cent for PCs and 14.6 per cent for tablets - so tablets are still playing second-fiddle to desktops/laptops, but by nowhere near as much as your figures would suggest. According to IDC's reckoning, that'll change by 2015 when annual PC sales will drop below tablet sales.

    Oh, the majority share of the 'connected smart devices' market? Smartphones. Crazy, innit?
     
  6. Nexxo

    Nexxo Stopped treating this country as if it was his own

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    Hey, it's a comparison you started. "In the olden days, when we had three-yearly updates, things were much better". No, they weren't. Microsoft had three years to get it right, with a whole bunch of service packs for Vista in between. Still, problems occurred.

    And weren't you arguing in the other thread just how much had changed between the Windows 8.1 RTM and public release? So obviously not just a glorified service pack.
     
  7. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    No neither am i :blush: i was going on best information available to me at the time.
    Global PC shipped for Q3 2013 still = 81 Million (aprox)
    http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24375913

    Global tablet shipped for Q2 2013 = 45 Million (aprox)
    http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24253413

    Granted they are three months apart, and predictions (such that they are) point to tablet sales outstripping PC sales in 2014.
    Do you need an account with IDC to access more recent stats ?
    And i stand by that comparison, like i said you cant compare 2 problems experienced when upgrading from a well known buggy OS to another (something most people advise against) to installing a glorified service pack causing 8 or more problems.
    So you are saying because lots had changed since 8.1 hit RTM, something i may add that should not be done. That this means its more than a service pack ? As i said Microsoft is entirely to blame for these problems as they have made major changes in the way the OS works after release candidate.
     
  8. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    There's your problem: you can't compare two different quarters like that. Sales tend to be cyclical, with troughs and peaks throughout the year. If you're doing a comparison, it has to be quarter-for-quarter or it's entirely invalid. When it comes to tablets, too, there's the predicted (and, given what happened last year, entirely likely) pre-Christmas boom: people aren't buying £300 laptops as a gift, they're buying £50-£100 tablets. This provides a more balanced view of the market, albeit with the proviso that - as per usual - the figures are pretty much guesswork followed by projections.
     
  9. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Yes i did go over the link you provided before but didn't want to use predicted figures.
    And i did try to find matching quarters but failed on that to :sigh:
    Although as i stated the numbers so readily provided as proof of a declining PC market says more about the shape of the major OEM's than the actual decline in desktop PC usage (IMHO)
     
  10. impar

    impar Well-Known Member

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    Greetings!
    Androids.
     
  11. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    The figures have never claimed to be proof of declining PC usage - merely declining PC sales. That's what the post-PC era is: it doesn't matter how many people still have a box under their desk with a traditional keyboard and mouse, it'd still kill the industry if they stopped buying a new one every couple of years - whether it's because they're buying tablets and smartphones instead, or they're blowing their money on blackjack and hookers.

    Beg pardon? There's no such thing as an 'Android.' That's not a product category, any more than Apple fans are buying 'an iOS.' It's an operating system, which runs on tablets and smartphones (and the occasional laptop, and set-top box, and TV, and games console, and strange USB-powered stick computer thing, and camera, and watch, and ski-goggles, and glasses, and embedded devices...) In this case, I'm talking tablets. Which is why I said 'tablets,' rather than 'Androids,' which as I've mentioned isn't a product category.
     
    Last edited: 22 Oct 2013
  12. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Ok maybe using "usage" was the wrong wording for me to use, but this post-PC era, lack of sales and the rest of the numbers touted to show the rise of the tablet and the decline of the PC still says more about the major OEM's not being able to sell the crappy boxes they make.

    If anything the lack of people buying a new one every couple of years will cause the major OEM's to go bust if they do nothing, how else do you square Steam is going up 76% year-on-year while PCs are going through double-digit declines, or the graphics market increase of 4.6%.
     
  13. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    I'm confused: are you agreeing with me? We both appear to be saying that if people stop buying new PCs, the industry - or, as you put it, the major OEMs, which account for the overwhelming majority of the industry - will go bust. If Dell, Lenovo, Acer, Asus, HP, and the rest of 'em closed up shop tomorrow, what would happen to Intel and AMD?

    And I'm not sure what you mean about "squaring" Steam growth. What is there to square? More people are installing Steam on the PCs they already have. That has zero impact on the PC industry - except, potentially, pushing the non-casuals into an early upgrade if they buy a particularly demanding title.
     
  14. impar

    impar Well-Known Member

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    Greetings!
    Whats the OS that comes in the 50-100 tablet product category?
     
  15. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    What's the OS that comes in the £200-300 laptop product category? I've never heard anyone saying "I just bought a Windows," or "can I have a Windows for Christmas," or "yes, Mr. Salesman, can you show me your Windows?" (Well, the latter minus the initial capital in a double-glazing showroom, I guess.)

    Sure, there's at least one alternative OS for the £200-£300 laptop category - ChromeOS, if you discount the possibility of buying an ancient second-hand Mac, which would do nothing for the PC shipment figures - but it accounts for a vanishingly small percentage. Around what webOS did in the cheap tablet market, in fact, before its untimely demise.

    People aren't buying Androids. They're buying tablets. The overwhelming majority of those tablets happen to run Android, yes, but unless and until you tell people your computer is a "Windows" or an "OS X" without any other qualifying information - not even whether it's a desktop or a laptop - then you probably shouldn't be trying to make that a new product category.

    (Incidentally, if you're looking for a bargain sub-£100 tablet for browsing, reading and the like, I'd recommend the BlackBerry PlayBook. Brand new units are still available, and you get 64GB of storage where a similarly-priced Android tablet would have 8GB or 16GB at best.)

    Let's play a fun game: I have in my left hand right now an Android, per your nomenclature. What device is it: a phone, a tablet, a laptop, an embedded development board, or something else entirely? G'wan. Guess.
     
  16. impar

    impar Well-Known Member

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    Greetings!
    They are buying tablets and the large majority of tablets in that price range have Androids OS. Tablets with Apple and Microsoft OSes dont offer alternatives at that price range. Thats why we have such a high penetration of Android devices.
    A dark grey smartphone with a small little pink heart at the back. Am I right?!
     
  17. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    I'm glad we agree.
    Nup. T'was a red Olimex A13-OLinuXino-WiFi development board with an aftermarket heatsink it doesn't really need but I fitted anyway. Now do you see how calling everything that runs Android an 'Android' is spectacularly unhelpful?

    EDIT: For the curious.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 22 Oct 2013
  18. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    I'm not sure its a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, its a matter of what peoples view of the PC industry are. From what you say it seems you view the PC industry as the major OEM's where as i view the PC industry as much more than that, if the major OEM's vanished over night both AMD, Intel and Nvidia would still be selling hardware directly to consumers and to other lesser known OEM's

    With regards to the "squaring" i mean the numbers given on the declining sales of the major OEM's doesn't fit with the increase in Steam sales of 76%, or the increase in the graphics market. Now im not saying the whole PC Eco system isn't going through change, but when people proclaim the death of the PC and the rise of the tablets such as Nexxo when he said...

    "You mean that home environment that imploded so hard around a dense core of tablets that PC sales hit an all-time low (for which Microsoft was also blamed, incidentally)?"

    I feel the need to point out that things are much more complicated than simply claiming a decline in the OEM's sales points to a decline in the PC usage or market share.
     
    Last edited: 22 Oct 2013
  19. impar

    impar Well-Known Member

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    Greetings!
    Not really. 50-100 tablets are still Androids.
     
  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo Stopped treating this country as if it was his own

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    So why are you making that comparison by arguing that Microsoft's yearly update cycle is more problematic than their three-yearly one? The two arguably can't be compared because they are different things. But if you want to liken Windows 8.1 to a service pack: the Windows 7 Service Pack update had problems too.

    But as ZDNet says:

    I am saying that whether it is a service pack or a new OS is kind of a grey area. Windows 8.1 certainly came with a whole new kernel (6.3, upgraded from 6.2 in Windows 8) and you yourself argue that there were a lot of changes. So YMMV.
     

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