Motors My Celica GT-Four Build Thread! - And Then There Were 4 (Update 25/08/20)

Yes, I agree with everything you've said... The spoiler does look better than the standard one on blocks, although I'd have to get the genuine one as the knock off/replica ones are reportedly not a good fit.

My engine bay will only be accented with one colour, don't worry His is just so incredibly well laid out and neat. I hope I can get my bay looking that clean and tidy eventually!

Race colours are definitely not what I'm going for. As mars said a few posts back, a stealthy street car with track car performance under the skin is the way to go here. A prime example of a GT-Four that this applies to is Tufy's 1994 car. Other than the rims and the fact that it has no interior in the back, it looks pretty normal. It's faster to a (gearbox limited) top speed of 185mph than most supercars though! And to look at the likes of "JamieP's" Supra you might be forgiven for thinking that it was a fast, but not supercar fast street race car. It's faster to 200mph than a Veyron though...

I'm working on something at the moment that might 'accelerate' the start of this project forward a few months. I'll keep you all posted as it develops I'm also going to post some pics of that other little purchase I made the other day. It's arriving this weekend

 

Just joined GT4DC.co.uk and am waiting for my account to be activated, and my GT4OC.net membership pack is coming at the start of the week

All being well, there will be a sizeable update around this time next week

 

Get ready to drool on your keyboard.

Clicky.

What an amazing machine, and he's selling it! For those of you who don't know what it is or what it can do, here's a vid of it running the hill at Goodwood in a hair over 48 seconds (his run starts at 1:48)



And who said the 3SGTE wasn't capable of 800? Twin charging Cheesecake! Here's some more info on the machine; Jonny Milner's TSS Celica

 

Ahhhhhhh fair play Matt, about time you started looking into your GT4 project!

Haven't read through much on here yet as don't have the time right now but will do to see what your planning

I've just booked up taking the Evo to SPA and Nurburgring next year with some mates, its going to be a mental trip so have to make sure the car is tip top for such a long drive and all the abuse its going to get

 

Ah yes Rob, about time indeed! I've been wanting to do this since I was about 17, and I've been an admirer of the GT4 since I was a kid, watching it on both local and WRC rally stages with Dad I decided when I was 19 that once I was done with uni and was working a steady job, I would start it - That time has almost come

I'm very jelly of your plans for next year! Mine won't be at a track before 2013 (at the earliest), but I think a lot of the fun is going to be in building it and seeing it take shape over time

Just a quick rundown of the plans to date in case you don't get a chance to read the whole thread to this point;

- Preferably 1994 Celica GT-Four ST205
- Multipurpose build for weekend driving and track day use
- Modest exterior mods, no race paint, widebody kits etc, just simple TRD body parts
- Bored, forged & stroked 2.16L 3SGTE powerplant, using Brian Crower stroker kit with JE pistons
- BC oversize valves, titanium retainers & springs, HKS high lift cams and relevant head work to suit
- Garret GT35R twin entry turbo, large FMIC, probably custom IC piping. Will have to see about a twin entry manifold for this
- Syvecs S6 ECU with race & road maps programmed
- Engine target an eventual 600bhp, will take a long time and a lot of tuning to get there
- Stripped out rear interior, 10 or 12 point roll cage (hopefully with bolt in/bolt out door bars)
- Maintain interior in front - dash, carpet etc for weekend drive use
- Do stuff right the first time. It's not modifying a car, it's stripping it and building it better than it was before

That's all I've got so far!

 

I've seen that video before, probably from the videos of awesome thread - that Celica is super light!!! And with that much power, it would be unbelievable to drive

I love those old F1 cars as well

 

The Celica sprint weighs a hair over 1050 kilo's, compared to the rather fat 1440 of a stock ST205. Now, that's "only" a reduction of about 400 kilograms, but when you consider that he boosted the power from 250 (approx output of the Corolla WRC engine he used) to over 800... you quickly see that the thing has an insane power to weight ratio! It ran the 1.1 mile hill at Goodwood in 48 seconds! I want one!

If that impresses you then Rod Millens Tacoma will blow your mind. Google that and have a gander at some raw Japanese power. Built by a Kiwi too!

 

This thing is pretty crazy:


lol@ comments:

You mentioned getting a carbon bonnet, but I forget if you're going to get composite quarter panels?
I'm guessing you're not going to have power steering, or the A/C and heater in the car?
What about electric windows and mirrors?

Any rough ideas about how much your Celica will end up weighing?

 

It's absolutely crazy is what it is! Just thinking about the fact that it's limited to 130mph but gets to 125 in 4.5 seconds... makes me wee a little! The gear ratios must be just insane, and the weight and aero package must be equally impressive to match.

Yes, I'd like to switch out the bonnet and bootlid with carbon copies, but they'll be painted up so what I might end up doing is getting glass fiber ones instead. One thing I know for sure is I won't be putting cheap bad copies on - some of them are horrendous and look nothing like the originals, but I'll be making sure that I get something along the lines of the RT performance parts which are always 100% replicas of the OEM sheet metal parts. I think the quarter panels and wings can stay as they are. I've seen guys building ST185's with glass fiber skinned body panels all round to save the maximum amount of weight, but I want mine to remain reasonably comfortable to drive on the road so I won't go to those sort of extremes. I think I'll save plenty on the body if I swap the bootlid and bonnet for lightweight versions and do the rest on the interior.

The seats will get changed, and all of the factory sound proofing will be coming out. I've been told there is about 5kgs of sound deadening foam in the drivers footwell alone. This can be replaced with newer, lightweight material off a roll or can be left out alltogether. I think I'll put some in the footwells but will probably leave everything behind the seats stripped. I haven't decided on the PS or AC yet - I'd like to retain them, but I think when you're going for a performance engine you have to sacrifice luxuries like that so they will more than likely get stripped and never go back on. If I find it's possible to retain them without sacrificing too much engine bay real estate or power I'll include them but it doesn't look likely.

Electric windows I'll be keeping, although I'll lighten the doors a bit. I really don't like manually wound windows, and the car doesn't need to be put on that extreme a diet. I haven't even looked at what mirrors I might put on yet. Again I'd like to keep them power folding/electric adjustable if possible. I find that things like that make the driving experience a little more modern.

I think if I manage to shave 200KG off the car I'll be more than happy. It'll be lighter than a standard ST205 by a long way and have almost 3x more power, which should give it a good power to weight ratio.

So to recap, here is what I know so far will be done to reduce weight:

Bonnet & boot replaced with lightweight composite replicas
Interior OEM soundproofing removed & replaced with Dynamat in critical areas
Front seats replaced with Bride racing seats
Seatbelts & mechanisms replaced with Driftworks 4 point harnesses
Rear seats & panels removed
All carpet behind front seats removed
Door cards lightened
Lightweight racing flywheel
Probably remove the AirCon and power steering
Heavy stock suspension replaced with lightweight adjustable coilovers

I'll aim for a keen, lean 1200KG, but anything below the standard kerb weight will be a good start. As long as it doesn't end up weighing the same or more once it's built, I'll be happy.

 

~1200kg would be very nice

The power steering doesn't weigh that much, but since you aren't going to be doing heaps of driving in it, I vote leave it out
My first car was a FWD Mitsubishi Cordia, with no PS, and that thing had a 12" steering wheel. Sure parking was a little difficult, but no big deal, and I was driving that thing all over the place. I drove some old heavy V8's with no PS as well, the cordia was the hardest to park with it's little wheel.

With as little as ~10km/h in that Cordia however, steering was easy enough with one hand, and by the time you are doing around 20~30km/h, I much prefer to have no steering assistance at all. Fixed rate power assisted steering in cheaper/older cars is way too light and hides most of the steering feedback.
Cars with no PS:
PROS: Maximum feedback, probably shave ~10kg from the front end, never have a power steering leak, less cluttered engine bay, and a tiny bit more power coming out of those turns
CONS: You can't turn the steering wheel using one finger whilst parking, one or two hands will be necessary.

A/C is a difficult one... there is a significant weight saving, maybe 15~20kg from the front end?
And increased airflow through the intercooler and engine radiator, as the A/C rad isn't there anymore.... but when it's hot/humid, on the road or track... you'll be sweating/crying for some A/C....

Maybe a lightweight peltier assisted cooling fan would do the trick? It might be a bit of fiddling around... but worth it imo.

Electric windows are a nice luxury... it would kinda suck to not have them, and although electric mirrors are a bit of a gimmick imo, these things don't weigh much, and they aren't up at the front end either, so why not leave them in I guess.

I think you should replace the battery with a lightweight version. Not much point relocating a lightweight one for optimum weight distribution, but it wouldn't hurt to relocate it, to behind the passenger seat or in the boot for example, and the extra space in the engine bay won't hurt either.

 

How much normal driving are you planning on doing? My Impreza is loud, like really loud. The engine/exhaust noise is glorious but the noise, heavy steering and vibration from the stiffened and lowered suspension make it a tiring car to drive. When your driving the car, its amazing and you do not notice these things but when your commuting it's annoying. If it's a car your going to do a lot of regular driving in it will be a tricky balance to make.

I'm really looking forward to you starting this project!

 

I certainly think the power steering will be getting left out. Like you said, it'll give more feedback that way. The AC I really can't decide on at the moment. I will definitely need all the engine bay space I can get (the battery being relocated is non-negotiable - it's going in the back, end of! ) so there's a good chance it will have to go, but if I can manage to squeeze it in at all I will, because I know how hot it can be in a car with no AC in the summer time, and with a fire breathing 600hp lump of engine screaming away in the front, things will be warmer than ever on track days! I'll make my decision on it based on how much space it takes up under the bonnet and how much the system weighs. If it's a big heavy space hogging brute, I'll leave it out and work something out with ducted cool air from outside or like you said, a fan blowing air through a pelt array.

DRB - I plan on driving it at weekends only. A lazy Sunday afternoon drive in the country, or the occasional outing on a Saturday evening is all I'm talking about. It's going to sit inside under lock and key during the week. I'll only be doing a max of 4 or 5 track days in it per year though, I think. Most of the ones I'll be going to will probably be in the South of Ireland or over on the mainland, like Castle Combe or Donnington. I would say the car will be on the road here just enough for me to enjoy it, but it's not going to be anywhere near an every weekend kind of thing. Also, I will probably never let it leave my sight or the sight of someone with me if I'm out anywhere in it. The words pride and joy won't even touch on how well I will treat it It is most certainly never going to be a commuter car either, not past the point where I've finished test driving it for a few weeks after buying, and am satisfied that I know what might need looked at before stripping it down. Once the work starts though, it'll be SORN'd until a good chunk of the work is done and it can be called more than 3/4 finished.

I can't wait to start it either buddy, it's going to be what I pour 99% of my free time into for the next few years! It'll be an awesome experience!

[edit]

Here are a few more things I've decieded on in the past few days, some of them may seem pretty minor but all the tiny details make up the big picture

- HKS 1000cc injectors
- HKS high pressure fuel rail
- Teigwa rear towing hook
- Fidanza flywheel
- Brian Crower high lift (272 degree) camshafts
- Fidanza alloy cam gears

The engine is going to be comprised almost entirely of BC parts... I wonder if they'll sponsor me?

 

As far as power steering goes I wouldn't decide on removing it until you've driven one. The original setup will likely have decent feel, and most systems aren't light, but 5-10kg in 1200kg doesn't matter imo, especially if it makes it a more usable car.

Not to mention the added complication of replacing the PAS rack with a sufficiently usable manual setup... I'd probably leave it in or consider an electric system, depending on how each system can feel.

 

I like the idea of using a peltier based AC. A PC style watercooling setup can keep a few powerfull peltiers cool, attach some heatsinks and place it behind the car's central air outles, and you've got cool air for just a couple of kilos. A couple of relatively small PC rads can sit up the front, without causing any air restriction to the FMIC, and not much hp lost on the alternator.

I haven't seen anyone do this, it's just an idea, but I think it's a good one

@Rude Baboon, just use/make some quick bolt on restrictors to quieten then Imprezza for the road.
I love the sound of those boxer engines, they are like big Ducati engines, but any loud exhaust gets annoying pretty quickly.

Another option guys, is to use a valve/s in the exhaust, which can either be actuated by a lever or electrically via solenoid.

These sorts of restrictors will quieten things up heaps, and should also improve low rpm performance and economy on the roads.

 

I've already decided that I'm going to put a QTP cutoff in the exhaust that I can open up for track use

I'll keep the PS as a maybe for now - if it's really not too light to drive at speed with it and is going to be a ballache to remove, it can stay. I think most track built GT4s get the AC yanked though, from what I've seen.

The pelt cooler design could definitely work - I've got a fair idea of how I would rig that up already and it's going to be peanuts in weight compared to a full AC system (compressor, condenser, copper piping etc).

 

The noise is half the fun! Anyways i've taken a deposit on the car so it is now effectively sold.

 

QTP cutoff looks pretty fancy

~10 kg from the front end makes more difference than ~10kg from the interior, but since you're removing the A/C and all the other stuff, I guess it's no biggie to leave the PS in.
There's also another CON of removing the PS: additional driver fatigue, which you'd probably notice after a long track day, especially if you're fighting torque steer all day!
If the PS is too light, then maybe just use a larger pulley, slowing down the pump, to save a bit of power, remove a bit of assistance, and increase the feed back a bit.

I've got high hopes for a peltier based A/C system... it might take a fair few powerful peltiers in the center and a couple on the side outlet, plus a couple or more PC radiators to get it running at a half decent level, but I think it should be enough to do the trick, whilst only weighing a couple of kgs or so including everything.
Just the mounting bracket for the original A/C compressor probably weighs ~10kg


Congratulations on the sale Da_Rude_Baboon, and commiserations as well, it sounds like you're going to miss her

 

Clicky

[edit]

What do you think of these for some nice shocks? Specially developed for the ST205 I believe it says! It's either these or the Koni equivalent, I've heard they are the ones to go for if you're willing to get the better shock on the market - there are Apex and BC ones for much less, but the Tein SuperStreet and Koni Sport Shocks are where it's at for pure performance on the street and the track, the cheaper options are fine for street use but don't offer the level of handling performance on track.

I've also decided to get hold of a HKS fuel rail kit for the 3SGTE whilst I still can - they're discontinued now, despite being the best rail on the market for the 3S (apparently). Only problem is that it's purple



I'm considering having it stripped and re-anodised to match my alloy cam gears, if the factory coating is thin enough to allow me to do so. If it's HAIII it's going to have to stay purple, because the etch and anodise process would throw all the tolerances for the injector and hose holes out if I have to acid etch HAIII off it.

 

Just giving this a gentle [[[[*bump*]]]] because I edited my post above with more info, and also to say that I found another fuel rail kit that comes in black and is supposed to be tried and tested on high horsepower 3SGTE's, the SpeedSource kit. I would still love the fuel rail to match the cam gears, but the SS kit is a lot less expensive than the HKS rail (as near as makes no difference exactly half the cost) and would be much less expensive to replace if something did go badly wrong with the re-anodising.

I know the rail sits way in at the back, tucked underneath the intake manifold (see pic below) and will never be seen once the engine is in, but since I'm going to have the engine out of the car for a good while before the build I want it to look as good as possible in every way when it's just on the stand!

 

I didn't think to use google, peltier based climate control is just one my old ideas waiting to be tried... the peltiers can also be used for heating, just turn off the water pump(s)
The original heater can be left out this way, so including all the plumbing and water removed from the car, that will eliminate another couple of kgs or so.
You could even mod in a couple of very lightweight heating elements to the seats if you wanted more heat.

Those coil overs seem very nice assuming the TEIN adjustment range is broad enough to cater for average roads and high performance track use.
I wouldn't know which brands are better than others, all I know is how the suspension should feel, and what adjustment capabilities are needed for tuning.

I assume you'll be adjusting the suspension before each track day?

Not just because the ideal suspension settings for a particular track will differ slightly mainly depending on the radius and incline of the turns, but nice track suspension is just way, way too stiff for public roads

Pretty fuel rails. Better to go with black if Purple isn't going to be your accent color.
(btw purple goes with red much, much more than blue does imo)