I'm not interested if he doesn't want to faff about, we gave HIM consent to have a look to make sure and we wern't filming the entrance. If he doesn't want to look that is his look out. We are offering to prove to him we are not breaking the law and it is Nexxo as simple as that because we wern't breaking any law. That court doesn't just deal with youth cases and I'm confident there wern't anymore cases left that day anyway. They simply did not want us there which was not against the law. The police are there to keep the peace, he could have stayed there while we were filming or called for assistance. I've seen them do it to a group much smaller than ours. That is fair, this guy was acting unlawfully. I was acting within the law, gave the constable every opportunity to view the phone which I fully consented to and he chose to quote Terrorism Laws at me. So should I have moved when I was breaking no law, not intending to break any law(you cannot treat everyone as suspects) and had done nothing to suggest we had as we were being co-operative. As far as I'm concerned that is all there is to it. You forget the other side when they abuse their power and have fun doing it. Besides, I've been in jobs(and am currently in one now) where I get the same treatment. I also used to collect debts for the energy company I work for. I know what the police go through because I spent alot of time with them when they had to be called out to keep the peace. If you don't like your job, quit. I've had to in the past. I would never blame the police, all the police do is follow orders they are given, they are the ones at the bottom doing the dirty work. Well they could say that about absolutely anywhere in the country couldn't they to get you to move. Even if it was true, we fully told them our intentions and they could have stuck around whilst we finished.
Again, he might have been worried about the filming you were going to do. Your "confidence" that there were no more cases being heard means nothing. Indeed an officer's job, first and foremost, is to keep the peace. It is up to the courts to uphold the law. In that instance he wanted you to move on from that location. You can accept that there may have been valid reasons for that, or you can take your objection further by the many legal means that you, as a citizen in this country, have at your disposal. But ranting about how your rights are being infringed by the Man is kind of pointless.
Like I said, he could have stayed to make sure we wern't filming anything we shouldn't be if we were that suspicious. The majority of the cases in that court won't all be sensitive to filming or photos, far from it. Not to mention to 1000's of people that pass by everyday...with a camera. I was proving to him there was no valid reason and no law was being broken. If he does not want to accept the proof how can you possibly hold me responsible and say he is right? I don't see how it is pointless when he quite clearly is abusing his authority. Rasing awareness is pointless then your suggesting?
You cannot prove what you are going to do. And he cannot babysit you while you are there. At that moment a sensitive case might just have been in session. And thousands of people pass the building without whipping their mobile out to stop and film it. So none of your arguments seem compelling to me. And there you go changing the argument again: I never made any statements about the usefulness of raising awareness.
He cannot babysit? I've seen them do it with just 2 people. And not just in the city of london. And in turn he cannot disprove it, so are we all to be treated as guilty? As suspects. A sensitive case in session, well if that was the case surely they would have mentioned it? There was no case they just didn't want us there. And actually if you went outside the City of London Magistrates, actually you will find quite a large amount of people DO have cameras out filming things. London is a tourist hotspot, you cannot walk around a busy part of London without seeing a camera. Do the arguments have to compell you? I'm merely stating my opinion as you are. Not at all, you made this comment, "But ranting about how your rights are being infringed by the Man is kind of pointless. " I was simply asking if you were suggesting raising awareness or ranting as you call it was pointless. I'm not ranting, all I've ever wanted to do is raise awareness. I question something you say and now I'm changing the topic? Havn't you just changed the topic by saying the topic has changed? Or were you merely just stating something on the side offtopic?
Your answers are always vague, thats why I have to keep asking you questions. Tourists taking snaps of nice looking buildings is a bit different to some people filming outside them. You also never mentioned what sort of thing you were filming. Due to the nature of what goes on in that building, I would have spoken to someone there to ask if it were ok to film outside and let them know my intentions.
If a sensitive case is going on in court, then of course the police officer would not mention it to you on account of the case being sensitive, like. What we do know is that he did not want you there. You think it's because of a whim, an abuse of power. I argue that he might have had a valid reason. But it is interesting how your story has evolved from "just hanging out with some mates, having our mobiles out" to "filming in front of the London Court of Magistrates". What other details have you left out? And I'm not sure how complaining about the police in this debate is tantamount to raising awareness about our citizen rights.
Abolsute and utter rubbish. Most my posts are long and detailed, so how can you possibly say I'm being vague? Your the one with short replies sir not me. But they "could" take a video of something they shouldn't. Stood out of the way in the background is much less suspicious. Both of your arguments are based around the fact I could do something wrong. It was a short film regarding London. That would be asking permission to do something that is lawful, only children do that. I was not intending to do anything unlawful and was prepared to prove it. Unfortunately, that even under law does not stand. He is allowed to say that they didn't want people filming due to a senseitive case appearing, not giving away any details. They have to prove their probable cause and authority. You cannot just say "I have the power and authority to do this" or "I have probable cause but I won't tell you what it is". I've already told you the constable admitted we had broken no laws and said that they just didn't want us there, if there was another reason he needs to have probable cause and he needs to tell us what it is. Otherwise they could use this to do anything they want. This would not stand up in court. I laughed nexxo I'll be honest. Lets take this from the top.. These were your two statements: 1. just hanging out with some mates, having our mobiles out(and I actually added they suspected we were filming to the end of this, and the fact it was a public place next to a public building) 2. filming in front of the London Court of Magistrates Can we just take a step back here? Tell me please why those two statements are so far apart from eachother? In the first instance, I just gave everybody a brief outline of what happened, if I had gone even further I'm sure you would accuse me of going off-topic. To point out as well, thats all I was doing, making a film with some friends. So then you imply that filming in front of the City of London Magistrates is completely different to what I said? The only difference is I never told you the exact public building. I left out absolutely nothing intentionally, I just told you what happened, as it happened. And it's very interesting how my story has evolved is it? You sure? Nexxo are you sure it wasn't just people asking questions about it and I went into detail further? Your really just trying to find anything now. All I did was answer the questions. I was breaking no laws, they had no probable cause and just did not want us filming there(and admitted it), so why on earth should I move from a public space? Just out of curiosity, whats the excuse for moving people filming outside of any other public building?
Why the London Court Of Magistrates? If a short film about London is not vague, then I am not sure what is.
Your asking me to go into even more detail about the video, it's irrelevent. It was a short video about London. That is all, I do not wish to go into further detail. So a post could be construed as slightly vague, but you feel the need to say ALL my replies are always vague, when as a matter of fact that could not be further from the truth?
Sorry, but that just leaves me thinking there is more to your story than you say. For that reason, can you give me a different example of being approached by the police for no reason?
Why would that be the case? It was a private movie about London, for private uses. Content is simply London. That is what the film is. You say i'm being vague but there is no more to say. It is completely irrelevent anyway. I've said numerous times that I would let the Police see what was on there, it isn't anything illegal, so the question is completely irrelevent and proves nothing. I'm not giving another example, one is more than enough to get along with, but in your reply I suppose you will be only too quick to point out I won't do this therefore everything I say is to be taken with a pinch of salt, right? Also please tell me what relevence the video has to the story in regards to me not telling you the full details? How is me not telling you the plot or gist of a short film possibly suggesting there is more than meets the eye? More so when my point is the Police abusing their power, how would the plot of the film possibly have an impact on this point? Your clutching at straws here.
Actually, by law they do not have to prove probable cause and authority to you. They are the police: they have authority, period. They only have to prove probable cause when the case reaches court. Well, you were not just hanging out socially in a public place, nor were you just suspected of filming; you were in fact filming, in front of a court. It casts a slightly different light on the situation. The police officer was wrong to move you on, but when he tells you to do so, you cannot challenge him on the spot. You have to challenge him in court. When you present evidence to support your claim of police abuse of power, it is reasonable that this evidence is going to be scrutinised in detail (isn't that how the legal process works?). What we are doing here is playing a version of 'courtroom', so to speak, with you making an accusation supported by evidence and us scrutinising that evidence and disputing your interpretation of it. You, being a proponent of people being aware of the law, should be comfortable with that process. Because he told you so, and he is the police. You can challenge him in court about it, but on the street, at that moment, you have to comply.
Simply London? Why not film next to the London Eye, or St. Paul's etc. I can only assume you were at the London Court Of Magistrates because it was significant to your film. That being the case, then I can completely understand why you were approached. Yes, it's not illegal, but you may have been encroaching on someone elses best interests which has already been mentioned in this thread. You want to raise awareness of our rights, which I have no issue with. My point is that I don't understand why a random person walking down the street would be stopped by the police. Your example clearly goes beyond this. Also, getting permission to do lawful things is not childish. Most consider it to be courteous.
Actually Nexxo, that is in fact incorrect. How would you know they were in fact Police Constables if they did not prove their authority by means of their warrant card(which they must have with them)? That comes under common law, you think I want to have the "police" search me, then after they've emptied my pockets, run off? You think just because they are in a uniform they are the police? They also have to prove probable cause as well, because that is what gives them the authority to search you or whatever it is they want to do. If they don't have it, they have absolutely no lawful right to touch you. I won't resist arrest, but I will most certainly tell them I hope they enjoy the paperwork. They HAVE to tell you what that probable cause is, as well as other things depending on why they stopped you. All of what I've said comes under common law, where is the relevent Act of Parliament that backs up what you have said? Are we coming back to this point again? Filming next to a magistrates court is perfectly legal, lawful and acceptable. We have already been over this and the reason for being there and why etc. Yeah challenge him in court. I have the choice between paying a large sum of money to a lawyer or use the free one Also, it will amount to nothing, what they going to do? Slap on the wrist don't do it again sort of thing. Pointless, I'd rather(sorry, I know how absolutely ridiculous this sounds) stand up for myself there and then and remind the constable he is there to keep the peace and not force us to move when we have broken no law. If he is worried about a court case he can't tell us about, staying with us is not unacceptable to ask. I've seen alot of small protests in the UK where there are 1-2 police, even with really small numbers. Is it so unacceptable I would rather not go through the hastle of going to court when I am doing absolutely nothing wrong? I would rather be arrested(if they do it) and spend a few hours in a cell and be released with no charge(never once have I ever been charged, I just explain to them exactly what happened, I have whats happened on video and I simply point out the relevent lawsm which they cannot deny, and they are extremely nice and curtious in return) I am perfectly happy with the process and never said I wasn't. You were implying that I had "evolved" a story from one to another like it was completely different and was not believeable. I was pointing out that people had just asked me to go into detail. I certainly don't have a problem with it, why do you think I go through things in such detail? Again no I do not. The probable cause is what gives him his authority, if he doesn't have authority he has no right to order me to do anything. If he wishes to arrest me, I will not resist but trust me they hardly do, it's all that corporate paperwork they have to fill in. I stand up for my rights if I have done nothing wrong. I'm sorry mate, what? I was taking footage of London. All of London! We did go to those places and many others! When I say a film about London I thought that would be obvious. Answering this, the rest of what you say bares no relevence now. Yes I "may" have been, can you prove I was? If you can't what are we talking about? If they are worried, stay close till we finish. You seem to think we were being unreasonable. We talk to the police with nothing but respect but when they raise the tone and start throwing laws around that arn't actually applicable then I won't stay quiet. Well it does happen, like I said, unless you are party to it happening or have seen it happen you wouldn't know the reason. I could sit here all day listing reasons and you would do your upmost to try and find a flaw with every one of them. More so when you say no reason, what people mean is, the police "think" they have a reason but they are mistaken. Why would I need to? Being courteous has nothing to do with it but if you want to talk about being courteous, why could they not politely come out and ask us what we were doing and how long we would be? We are standing outside a public building in a public place, filming, breaking no laws. They decided to be rude and abusive, the security guard was no better. We have done nothing wrong and are being treated like criminals, and the worse part is, you all think it's acceptable.
No it's far from obvious. A lot goes on in London. You could not have been more vague. I am not asking for loads of reasons, just some more examples that prove your point. You are happy to go "out there" and talk to people and raise awareness, but can't or won't give me any examples that would put your advice to good use. Being courteous may have prevented the whole issue from happening from the start. You say you have never been charged, but have you ever been arrested?
Why would you possibly think "London" would be limited to only the City of London Magistrates? It's difficult to get a point across on a forum. I was giving you an example of being asked for details, searched and threatened when the law has not been broken. That was the example given. Very similiar situations have occured around parliament for terrorist reasons which you can probably understand, but how about council office buildings, public spaces such as hyde park. Each has their own situation and being honest, considering the majority of people including yourself didn't read what I had said when I had gone into it with such detail, I can't really be bothered to sit there and do it all again just to have the same happen. Me constantly repeating. I don't mind voicing it, but typing becomes tedious You can say it won't happen this time but I've heard it all before. Oh, are you referring to them being courteous or me? Because either way, they certainly didn't have to speak to us the way they did. I don't have to have a permit to film in a public place as per the Metro Police guidelines, so as far as I was concerned I wasn't doing anything wrong which is perfectly reasonable. Yes indeed. People who think they have the authority don't like being told they don't. I have absolutely no wish to belittle anyone, I just see it as an oportunity to spread the word, so to speak. I always tell them they will get no violence from me if arrest is deemed necessary to them, I just point out the laws, they double check and usually release me even without giving a name but I'm never ever nasty about it and I'm extremely polite. When they realise I'm not there to cause trouble, I'm simply exercising my rights, and considering everytime I have been arrested I have had video evidence to back up what I've said but more importantly, what the constable has said. If he has said something incorrect I will point it out and back it up with evidence. Honestly mate 9/10 they will listen to me with absolutely no hostility at all, and when they verify what I'm saying if they don't already know they still continue talking to me with interest. Some of the Police Force are very lovely people.
I'm sorry? All you said was that it was a film of London footage. I mentioned that was very vague. Sorry, but you are not really giving me much else to go on here. I was referring to you. Considering the nature of the building you were filming in front of, did it not cross your mind that some kind of interaction with security or the police was a possibility? Not there to cause trouble - where is this place you are referring to?
Thats the point, there isn't anything else to say. The film is just footage of London. Look if your really that interested, I do a "diary" of cities when i visit them every year. I keep the footage so I can show my children what a place was like when I was younger. It really is just boring footage of London, speaking to people. Of course, but it crossing my mind or not does not give the security guard the right to shout at us, insult us, then the police threatening to search us, take our details etc. But again you seem to think filming in front of a Magistrates Court is unlawful. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. If they had a problem with us being there, is being civilised alot to ask for instead of threats and hostility? You don't seem to ever comment about that, only what you think I've done wrong. The place being the police station or sometimes if I'm really lucky a sargent comes out to have a word. When I say not there to cause trouble, meaning I didn't get myself arrested to cause the police trouble. The police truely believe sometimes that what they say cannot be questioned and when you point the laws out to them and they radio through asking for advice(this is done away from us most the time) they are as nice as pie.
No, I don't think it's unlawful. I just think it was reasonable for you to have been approached by the police because you were doing something that warranted it. I am after examples of people doing nothing suspicious, unlawful, going about their daily business and being stopped by the police. Which, so far, you have not given. I meant - where are you being arrested and why, if you don't mind me asking?
