You can choose not to feel offended. Your choice. I live opposite a church (second time in a row, actually) which also functions as a community centre. It's a nice Victorian building to look at and I do my bit to support it --because it offers an important function as a community centre. About the rest I'm easy as Sunday mornings. There are a lot of things in the world I could get more upset about. Poverty. War. Wanton violence and vandalism. As for people knocking on my door, I politely send them away. They politely thank me for my time and leave. It's all good. I recently attended the church wedding of my friends. It was their special day; they honoured me by inviting me to be part of it, and since this was about them, not me, I happily put up with the churchy bit (which was a spectacular 17th Century chapel, and the wise-cracking Vicar made it a really nice and upbeat ceremony). Didn't sing though --I don't know the tunes. Didn't join in the prayer, because I'm an atheist and pretending would be disrespectful. But I did respectful silence at those moments, not for God, but for the right of others to believe what they believe. My neighbours are seriously church-going Christians. They know we are atheists, but they invited my wife and me to their baptism anyway. We went and even joined in with the applause at the end of the ceremony. It doesn't mean anything to us, but we understood that it meant a whole lot to them and that they wanted to share that important moment with us, and we accepted that gift gratefully, even if it clashes with our living room decor (so to speak). But the buildings sure are pretty, no? No, sanctification is. By not joining your sister in her significant moment, you made your beliefs more sacred than your relationship with her. That is a form of religion, right there. Dude, it's ALL superficial crap. When was the last time you heard a politician sound profound, like? Religion makes no difference. People were good and bad before, and good and bad after. People are no better for it and no worse for it. You are barking up the wrong spire.
You mean as opposed to capitalism, communism, nationalism, racism, sexism, homophobia, tribalism or other forms of assorted prejuduce and discrimination? You hate religion with an almost religious zeal.
Do you know what happens if you draw a cartoon that mocks capitalism? That's right - absolutely nothing.
So a person could be very religious and that isn't a problem for you, but his/her attendign church is? Or is the church service ok but the Church hierarchy/organisation the issue? Potentially I'md agree with you on the last one in that all human organisations seem to end up lloking after the organisatrion, before the objective for which is was set up, or the interested of whatever group it is supposed to look after. But that isn't about religion at all.
I consider myself a hardcore atheist, and as the OP, I dislike religions. I truly do. I also have a pretty liberal streak, so as far as I am concerned to each their own, for as long as they don't harm anyone else. But this is the key: as long as they don't harm anyone else So what about their children? I think children are part of "anyone else". Manipulating them into believing in religions is wrong. They are not old enough to give assess ideas rationally, they are just being manipulated. If they can't give consent for sex, then they surely can't give consent to religious exposure. Just like pornography, violence, etc... Religion should be 18+.
Problem is, if religions don't start working on people young, then there's a much greater risk of the subjects formulating their own opinions. Whilst some of the more mature religions tolerate this "free thought" up to a point, plenty don't. It's a case of - you'll believe in this, or you're no longer part of our club (or dead).
Dear me, how on eath did I survive all those years of frightful indoctrination? If you're for protecting children from religion what about political ideologies and other value sets? Because I seriously don't see a major problem in this country from the legions of indocrtinated Catholics and CoE-ers. Obviously at the fringes it doesn't look so good. But is a teenage Methodist really worse than a teenage racist stuffed full of nationalist ideology?
Come on though Risky, you know indoctrination and education are two different things. My problem stems from the element of choice. I a free country all children should have the right to receive an unbiased, balanced education. This would allow then to formulate their own take on things. If they happen to choose the same religious path as their friends/family then fair play to them, but they should not be stigmatised for disagreeing.
True, I accept this as a weakness in my argument. At what point does one differentiate a religion, from an ideology, or from an opinion. Racist ideology is covered by hate speech. Not that hate speech legislation has solved the issue, but at least it's close to impossible to hear openly racist/homophobic views on TV, UK TV at least. Young religious people may turn out ok, I was one, but I feel that they have been handicapped by being exposed to a "faith" system that is disconnected from empirical evidence. Of course, there are worse things you can do to children, but it doesn't mean that religious education is not wrong.
You'd have to make politics 18+ as well then I guess? In both cases (and a lot of others when it comes to children) it's up to the parents to try to do what's 'best' for their children. Different people have different ideas of what's best but there's not a lot you can do about that.
Oh I agree, merely saying that if the poster was suggesting religion should be 18+ due to children being manipulated then I would have thought politics would be the same. What do you mean when you say a public school?
straw man there, communists didn't ban religion because they were atheist, they did it to avoid another competing power. they wanted complete authority and banned all else. dealing with the last bit first, Nazi's weren't atheist, they utilised Christianity to justify the killing of Jews and other "deviants" but the faith in other things is an important thing to consider. when you look at wealfare cases, there have been a number of times where people have believed in faith healing, resulting in the death of children to preventable causes, which then has resulted in children being removed for their safety. this is important to consider when talking of religion. if parents are religious they will force it on their children. all religious creeds would promote such behaviour, and its needed as a psychological support of their own belief. (think rabid fanboys support for products as a result of the need to justify their own purchases). and this translates into indoctrination - and therefore an inability to look at the legitimacy of religion racism is something thats learnt through exposure from family. alcoholism is a good example of something like this, the children being exposed to it are more likely to become alcoholics themselves. and unlike alcoholism, religion will actively prejudice relationships against leaving. there are numerous stories of members of family cut off from one another as a result of leaving said religion. this has even more effect when the child has lived their entire life within a religious community and following their choice to leave loses much of their social network. the religion like a penis metaphor was poorly phrased in this thread, it shouldn't be shoved down any child’s throat, whether or not their parents are religious or not. and unfortunately society doesn't stop this pressure. schools in Britain still have a requirement for assembly and (at least in this part of Wales) prayer, in addition to religious studies. I was brought up in a religious household, and whilst my immediate family have mostly accepted that I'm not interested, they still pressure me slightly towards doing certain religious things (I only accommodate them once a year, and went to the passover crap last week (on a complete sidenote there, why is unleavened bread (free of yeast) a sign of purity, but wine (which is brewed with yeast) not considered unpure??)). and whilst I have no problem with anyone being religious, why should any of their religious values have an impact on me. for example, we go back to the 3-person IVF which was discussed on this forum several months back, who was included in the deliberations in whether to make it legal... when discussing social rights who get included.... thats right, religious leaders. if religion could restrict itself to consenting adults and them alone then very few would have issue with it, but its pervasive integration into society and the lives of other people are what cause me to hate it. and in recent years I've gone from being irritated with it to being somewhat pissed off when I hear what they get away with doing (the 3 person IVF and religion was particularly infuriating to me)
Sorry, but nothing that is being said here is specific to religion. And there is a difference between indoctrinating children and educating them? Please. Not as much as you think. Come on: work at it. Tell me one thing that is uniquely evil about religion that no other form of ideology, tribalism or sanctification shares?
The last judgement is a tad harsh: repent or be condemned to an eternity of unimaginable torment in a lake of fire. I've seen fairer contracts.
Huh? Some idiots murdered an innocent person? How is that story, as tragic as it is, relevant here? Join our club or you'll Burn... for ever. Lol. Just think about that for a minute. No wonder it was so popular.
No. Probably 'better'. But neither is good as a teenager stuffed full of science and a balanced world view. For many a year I worked with a lot of clients who were evangelical catholic charities. The way they indoctrinate children with colouring in books, comics and activity holidays is scary. It's all about getting them on side as young as possible. There's never a choice or any education on alternative beliefs.
Some idiots murdered an innocent person for dressing and looking different. "Join our club or we'll beat you to death". See? Religion not required.
All children are indoctrinated to fit into the culture and society they grow up in; to believe what the parents believe. You are raising your kids to value knowledge, reason and a balanced worldview because you value knowledge, reason and a balanced worldview. You will probably also teach them to play nice, not go around hurting people and to dress appropriately, eat with a knife and fork and speak properly, like (no swearing!). Because that's the culture they live in and have to be able to function in. We indoctrinate kids into gender roles from the moment they pop out and we check what's between their legs (which superficial inspection can lead to complications later on). We indoctrinate them into the social class they are born in. We indoctrinate them in our own worldview. We do this subconsciously as well as consciously, and here are actually sound evolutionary reasons for that. You have a lifetime experience of Not Dying; you must have something worth knowing about this world to impart on the kids. We indoctrinate children because they don't know any better; they have no baseline for comparison. They take what we teach them on trust. And when they don't, we consider that a problem and find ways to force it on them. Again: religion not required. Oh, and one more thing: You haven't been around a lot of alcoholics, have you? Or drug takers. Rife with peer pressure, all. It's a big problem in mental health work.
