1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

I think I 'hate' religion.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Guinevere, 23 Apr 2014.

  1. Yadda

    Yadda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2003
    Posts:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    49
    Killing someone for being different is one thing, and yes, religious fanatics are not alone in that.

    That's not the same thing though. The lake of fire/burn for eternity deal isn't real yet it is routinely used by people who claim a higher morality to manipulate people and children.
     
    Last edited: 24 Apr 2014
  2. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,354
    Likes Received:
    1,762
    The quirky cultural vagaries of British English can cause confusion here. In the UK private schools are generally called "public schools". Perhaps ironically they emerged from charity schools established to educate poor scholars, the term "public" being used to indicate that access to them was not restricted on the basis of religion, occupation or home location, and that they were subject to public management or control, in contrast to private schools which were run for the personal profit of the proprietors. Schools funded by the state are called state schools (while outside of the UK they are called "public schools"). Trust the Brits to be different.

    Yes, and why are we always talking about religion? We should pretend that religion is the source of all evil. Religion doesn't kill people; people kill people.

    Well, since we are playing the "You don't know what you're talking about" card, I am a clinical psychologist with 20 years of experience. I know a bit about now people work. And to argue that religion is the root cause of human misery is like saying that FPS video games are the root cause of school shootings.

    We should not just bother: we should know what we're bothering with, and why, and how. Religious persecution is a bad thing, whether committed by a religious group or by atheists.
     
    Last edited: 24 Apr 2014
  3. megamale

    megamale Member

    Joined:
    8 Aug 2011
    Posts:
    252
    Likes Received:
    3
    Well I can concur that religion is not the source of ALL evil, but I will stick my neck out and say that it is the source of MOST evil.

    Religion teaches you to not trust the scientific method, that your intuition is more important than hard evidence, that the end justify the means, that you can ignore and select evidence as it suits you, that people different from you are less valuable. Even if that child doesn't buy in the "religion", he acquired characteristics that will lead him to idiocies from homeopathy to racism, and everything in between.

    A balanced scientific education teaches the opposite. True, if you consider that children just take everything at face value, this is just indoctrination. But indoctrination to empirical analysis is actually a GOOD thing. Some may argue, that we are indoctrinating them to think for themselves. I find it very hard that anyone that values empirical analysis may ever become racist (but I am sure we will find exceptions)

    So religious indoctrination = bad, scientific = good. I don't even feel the need to expand. Relativism doesn't really apply here.
     
  4. Yadda

    Yadda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2003
    Posts:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    49
    In America, believers can buy a post-rapture pet care plan so when there's a second coming and they float off to the heavens, their little Earth-bound doggies and moggies will be looked after. :lol:
     
  5. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,354
    Likes Received:
    1,762
    The scientific evidence does not bear that out. Nations and societies with strongly religious cultures are not more inclined to crime and other behaviour we would consider evil than secular nations and societies. Neither are all the human motives for committing evil acts predominantly religious in nature. Turns out religion makes no difference one way or another.

    Your argument would imply several things:

    1. That faith and the scientific method are incompatible. That is not true.
    2. That the scientific method is always superior to intuitive belief or faith. That is also not true.
    3. That all human quandaries and life quesrions have a scientific answer. That is also not true.
     
  6. Yadda

    Yadda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2003
    Posts:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    49
    A "young earth" creationist studying evolutionary biology would be awkward.
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,354
    Likes Received:
    1,762
    He'd be doing it wrong. :)
     
  8. Yadda

    Yadda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2003
    Posts:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    49
    For sure. Stupid fossils, dissing his faith. :)
     
  9. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,354
    Likes Received:
    1,762
    Faith has nothing to do with how old the Earth is. But people can believe whatever works for them. The fossils don't care.
     
  10. Yadda

    Yadda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2003
    Posts:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    49
    It has everything to do with it if you're a young earth creationist because there simply isn't a single piece of evidence to support their theory. It's 100% pure hardcore faith all the way - no science required.
     
  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,354
    Likes Received:
    1,762
    I disagree. People's stupidity expresses itself in a multitude of varied ways: in football (hooliganism), in cars (drunk driving and road rage), in science (nukes and eugenics), in freedom of expression (most stuff on the internet), in tribalism, in fashion (the sexualisation of women and the pursuit of shallow unrealistic beauty ideals), in ideology (most of them), in pet ownership (of stupidly overpowerful dogs)... I could go on. But it is not about those things. It's just how their stupidity expresses itself.

    You are complaining about a symptom. I'm talking about root causes.

    Sanctification is a problem: making something sacred and unchallengeable, and placing above everything else. Walle made his idea of marriage sacred and put it above the happiness of gay couples. You made your dislike of religion sacred and put it above sharing a special moment with your sister. Some people make money sacred, or social status, or family (even if it is a dysfunctionally abusive and neglectful one), or their nationality, or their race or tribe. And before you know it people are killing each other over a frigging idea.

    That's not faith; that's believing in fairy tales.
     
  12. PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn

    PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn Unholy Cyborg Fruit Machine

    Joined:
    11 Jan 2011
    Posts:
    290
    Likes Received:
    10
    but when we make laws we make sure we have goths, or furries, or insert whatever group you want into commities for their opinion... not for everything, but religion is automatically included in whatever.

    so alcoholics refuse to talk to family members who decided not to be an alcoholic?? pushing drugs/booze I see that. but cutting family off for refusing to drink?


    also, schools therefore also have classes for studying goths and furries etc. and in the morning they have assembly conducted for each of these different groups.. bs, religion gets given this special privilege to be waved round in public without others being allowed to question it. schools for example enforce dress codes which ban things such as coloured hair or alternate clothes. this would be an example of discrimination against my favourite example the goths and furries. yet they wouldn't be allowed to discriminate against a pupils religious "choice".

    moreover, you cannot publicly criticize religion, because to do so would be offensive. scientists developing cures based on stem cells can be called evil monsters, but priests cant be called out for not outing child molesters. you have people make mockeries, lie and distort statements by prominent atheists like Dawkins, yet cartoons of a "holy figure" resulting in building being burned down.

    how many laws do you see being put in place to restrict religious activities*, but on the flip side, what about the various laws that persecute the LGBT community. what about the government employee in Malaysia who was hounded out of his job arrested, received death threats for being an atheist

    *I can think of such laws, but they are put in place by countries with an established religion that is afraid of competition

    moreover, how many atheists have committed terrorism, or executed people for believing in x,y or z. and Stalin/Mao dont really count on the basis that they used atheism as an excuse for avoiding the possibilities of alternate authority figures. in the media theres the claim of militant atheism, but all that is meant by that is people being vocal about not wanting religious crap being forced on them or others.
     
  13. megamale

    megamale Member

    Joined:
    8 Aug 2011
    Posts:
    252
    Likes Received:
    3
    This presumes that what is a crime here is a crime in a religious society. To take an extreme example I will bet that stoning adulterers in Saudi Arabia is not a crime. The other counter-argument is that religious cultures tend to be homogeneous, which in itself brings out peace. But my argument wasn't that, it was that a faith-based upbringing (not to say religious) is an indirect conduit to bad things, even if not directly responsible. A cursory look in the US would suggest that the most racist, homophobic states are also the most religious.


    Well I fully agree with you. I am implying these things. And I think they are all true.

    1- Faith and scientific method is incompatible. The typical example of the religious scientist is just a case of compartmentalising, not mixing, both worldview.

    2- The whole point of the scientific method is to isolate intuition and get to an objective conclusion. If intuition brought better results, it would be part of the scientific method.

    3- This is a bit more nuanced, but although not every question can be treated scientifically (probably it could with enough effort), religion is definitely not the way to treat it. There is a whole discipline, called philosophy, that deals with such things, and when you look closely into it, you will find out that it is very close to the scientific method.
     
  14. Yadda

    Yadda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2003
    Posts:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    49
    But what if that "stupidity" is at the heart of something's meaning? Believing the Earth (oh, and universe by the way) is less than 10,000 years old isn't a side effect or aberration of young earth creationism - unlike say hooliganism is to football etc etc - it's their central belief.

    If they weren't fairy tales you wouldn't need faith in order to believe them, you could use reason instead.

    I don't dislike religion, as long as it doesn't interfere with reason.
     
    Last edited: 24 Apr 2014
  15. PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn

    PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn Unholy Cyborg Fruit Machine

    Joined:
    11 Jan 2011
    Posts:
    290
    Likes Received:
    10
    on the science bit, its given us nuclear reactors that allow clean energy, its provides the nuclear isotopes used in medicine,

    eugenics is somewhat debatable. when you talk of killing people or forced sterilizations then its clearly wrong, yet on the otherhand, genetic counseling, gene therapy, 3-person IVF are all examples of eradicating unwanted genetic problems so they dont effect further generations. which in some ways can be likened to eugenics,

    and I would add further its not the science that is at fault, but the militarization or politicization that turned these concepts into the mistakes that they were
     
  16. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,354
    Likes Received:
    1,762
    Again: alcoholism is a symptom. It's not really about the drinking. It's about the family or social culture that expresses itself (amongst others) in drinking. In order to be part of a dysfunctional network of relationships, you have to be dysfunctional yourself. You have to collude with it. Nothing more embarrassing to a bunch of drunks than a sober person watching them.

    One of the problems that many mental health clients experience when they start improving is the accusation of friends and family that "you changed, man!", as if that as a bad thing. Indeed, to them it is. Similarly, a child from a sink estate background having ambitions to get an education and make something of himself is often seen as a tribal disloyalty. You should know your place --and that is with us.

    Again the problem is not religion, but its sanctification: making it sacred. I know that many religious groups will argue that their religion is sacred, but I know people who would say the same about their country or their football club. In the US pupils still pledge allegiance to the flag.

    Correlation does not imply causation. Both are symptoms of the same underlying causes. Stupid people behave stupidly and believe stupidly.

    God could not have created the universe by Big Bang, and then let evolution do its thing?

    If that is so, how come we have survived for 250 million years on instinct and intuition? Seems to be good for something.

    Religion is a product of philosophy. Science had humble beginnings.

    But it's not faith. Young Earth Creationists believe it is, because they made their belief sacred. But it's not; it's just a belief.
     
  17. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,354
    Likes Received:
    1,762
    YES! Yes, now you are getting it! It is not the science that is at fault, it's what stupid people make of it. It is not religion that is at fault, it's what stupid people make of it. See the corollary?
     
  18. Yadda

    Yadda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2003
    Posts:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    49
    What do you think faith is, Nexxo? Don't all religious beliefs involve faith, like the YEC's for example? Why not?
     
    Last edited: 24 Apr 2014
  19. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,354
    Likes Received:
    1,762
    Faith is (to me) the trust in or embrace of for instance God or a set of life principles. It's a sort of first axiom. YEC should just be content to believe in God, and not need to argue about facts that may or may not back up their Biblical view. So should the Intelligent Design crowd. If you have faith in God, you don't need to look for specific proof of His existence. Whatever science finds is valid; it is simply revealing God's work. Who are we to say what it should look like? Indeed there were/are those who believe that science is a divine activity: that it is, by revealing His creation, a way of knowing God and becoming closer to Him.

    As I said: sanctification --to make those superficial things sacred, elevating them above challenge and scrutiny, above reason and logic, making them more important than anything else, including people and life itself.

    Well, that's where you get unstuck. You cannot scientifically prove the ideas behind human rights any more than those behind democracy or communism. They are a first axiom: the assumption or adoption of a principle from which everything else logically follows. It's a philosophy.

    You can scientifically prove the pragmatic value or functionality of human rights, democracy or communism --it's just social psychology, after all-- but you can't scientifically prove that they should exist, just whether it would benefit human existence if we adopt them as principles.
     
    Last edited: 25 Apr 2014
  20. Guinevere

    Guinevere Mega Mom

    Joined:
    8 May 2010
    Posts:
    2,484
    Likes Received:
    176

Share This Page