1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

I think I 'hate' religion.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Guinevere, 23 Apr 2014.

  1. Guinevere

    Guinevere Mega Mom

    Joined:
    8 May 2010
    Posts:
    2,484
    Likes Received:
    176
    I very much support a 'live and live' ethos.

    Race. Height. Gender. Sexuality. Shoe size. Language. Faith. Appearance. Accent. Hair colour. Operating system choice. all just ingredients in the great recipe of humanity.

    Pick one - pick em' all. Doesn't matter to me. Until...

    You start getting evangelical about your choice / viewpoint / belief and start disrespecting those who differ.

    Over the last few days we've had some conservatives trying to double down on their religious credentials with statements such as "Many of the underlying ethics of society are Christian-based".

    I hate this viewpoint that ethics and morality have Christianity as their point of origin. It's complete and utter crap.

    I do good things because they are good things, not because I've been told to fear a god. My morality comes from learning the difference between right and wrong, so I've got my family and Captain Kirk to thank for those life lessons not some sky god or spaghetti monster. My parents brought me up as a Christian, with church every sunday. But they also taught me right from wrong and to think for myself. I concluded that god was an impossibility. There was no evidence to the contrary and every written record to support the argument of 'god' was flawed to the point of being worthless.

    It wasn't that it made 'no sense' (IE it was without sense), it was that it was full of stuff that went out of it's way to not have any sense.

    Religion is used as a defence (by some) for misogyny, child abuse, incest, greed, murder, oppression and lots and lots of hatred. To top it off it usually comes wrapped up in bundles of hypocrisy... and lots more misogyny. (Show me a religion that isn't misogynistic)

    Religion either brings nothing to the table, or it brings a bucket of rotten entrails. Some will say 'religious charities do good work'. Well I've seen many a religious charity at first hand and again at best religion adds nothing and you're just talking about nice people doing nice things, or religion adds the 'We're nice Christians helping you. Would you like to be a Christian too?' message that follows (either overtly or subtly). Religion adds nothing.

    I don't feel that religion (or any form of faith belief) has added anything to our life on earth. It's at best a distraction that slows us down and worst the greatest facilitator for woe we'll ever know. It's a parasite on those it afflicts.

    I'm genuinely disappointed when I learn a friend is religious. And seriously question the judgement of any scientist that follows a faith. I see them all as a little weak minded and unable to break the biological and cultural programming that leads so many to follow a faith.

    My optimism for the future takes a hit when religious arguments are brought into any form of discussions, especially political.

    I'm ranting aren't I?

    Actually... I don't think I hate religion. I know I hate it.
     
    alfizzle likes this.
  2. GeorgeStorm

    GeorgeStorm Aggressive PC Builder

    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    6,664
    Likes Received:
    396
    Do you think that those who use religion for an excuse for doing bad things wouldn't do those bad things is religion wasn't a thing?

    In the same vein do you think people who work for those 'religious charities' would still do the good work if religion wasn't a thing?

    Not saying I agree/disagree with you just wondering what your thoughts are.

    Edit:
    Are you still disappointed when you find a friend is religious even if they aren't all evangelical about it?
    You say the faith people have does't bother you, but then go on to say you hate religion, which strikes me as two conflicting statements (unless I'm misunderstanding)
     
  3. Shirty

    Shirty W*nker! Super Moderator

    Joined:
    18 Apr 1982
    Posts:
    12,490
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    Guinevere, you generally seem to share the same viewpoints as me so I don't have much to add or challenge from your OP. I wouldn't say I hate religion, but as soon as it becomes a 'thing' in my interactions with a person/persons I tend to lose my respect for them.

    I have equal respect for folks of any religious persuasion as I do for those without religion, but as soon as I become aware of any undercurrents of their beliefs in my day to day life I lose interest. I don't push my atheist beliefs on others, and I'd thank them not to even inform me of what their beliefs are - let's just interact as adults eh?

    Also, I think it's fair to say that humanity (for want of a better word) appears to have gotten along just fine before any of the modern religions of the past 2-3000 years started to form. So I'm afraid concepts such as "Christian values" to me largely just mean "the values you'd expect any nice member of society to hold".

    Every facet of society has its nutjobs of course, but I can't help that feel that religion is a breeding ground for otherwise level-headed people to start thinking about real, tangible things in terms of what they (or their teachers/community) think they should think, rather that what they actually think, innately.
     
    alfizzle likes this.
  4. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

    Joined:
    11 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    6,940
    Likes Received:
    264
    Ask them if they think society was ethical and christian based in Europe and USA 150, 300, 500 years ago (of course it doesn't really apply to USA in the larger timeframe, but the first two does apply to USA too).

    If they answer yes, then ask them about burning witches, inquisition, slavery, black or woman rights,... Those all were once part of our "christian-based ethics". Also ask them if they think Romans or Greeks were killing/raping/robbing everyone all the time before Christianity...
     
  5. Jim

    Jim Ineptimodder

    Joined:
    2 Sep 2007
    Posts:
    311
    Likes Received:
    7
    So 'live and let live', but you also hate religion?

    I can understand why people dislike evangelism, but evangelism and religion are not the same thing - they just happen to frequently coincide because a lot of religious people think that their purpose is to save people.

    Personally, I don't like evangelism much either. But it doesn't particularly matter to me whether they're beating the drum of religion, atheism, cruelty to animals, crackpot conspiracies, or whatever. The act itself is what is annoying.

    Point is, I don't see how you can justify the statement 'I hate religion' if you believe that people should be able to live their lives in peace without interference.

    Surely if someone follows a religion, does good work, and doesn't impinge on your life, then there's no issue there?
     
  6. yodasarmpit

    yodasarmpit No longer the other Brett.

    Joined:
    27 May 2002
    Posts:
    11,290
    Likes Received:
    181
    I believe Guinevere is entitled to hate religion, so long as she does not act upon it in a discriminative way.

    I hate Dr Who, but I have nothing against those who wish to watch it, and wouldn't wish to prevent them from doing so.
     
    Last edited: 23 Apr 2014
  7. Shirty

    Shirty W*nker! Super Moderator

    Joined:
    18 Apr 1982
    Posts:
    12,490
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    I can go one further - I've never even seen Dr Who. I still hate it though. Ponder on that...
     
  8. Jim

    Jim Ineptimodder

    Joined:
    2 Sep 2007
    Posts:
    311
    Likes Received:
    7
    Of course, she is entitled to have whatever opinions she wants.

    My post was really questioning the logic behind taking a live and let live approach, but then picking out a certain activity and declaring that you hate it.

    For example:
    Personally, I see that as a huge generalisation and not particularly open-minded.
     
  9. Modsbywoz

    Modsbywoz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    14 Oct 2009
    Posts:
    2,766
    Likes Received:
    251
    I love Dr Who, and i REALLY think you should watch it. If you don't....blah blah blah.

    Is it actualy Religion you hate, or the things people do in the name of religion?
     
  10. Margo Baggins

    Margo Baggins I'm good at Soldering Super Moderator

    Joined:
    28 May 2010
    Posts:
    5,607
    Likes Received:
    242
    I don't think I would think less of a person on the grounds they have some kind of religious belief. That's up to them! Same way as I don't really care if people are vegetarians, I do think a little less of them, but mainly in jest.

    belief/faith etc. is up to an individual surely, and if for them believing in a religion makes them feel more complete and happier then go forth and do it.

    I think the problem is not in religion itself, but stems from peoples following of religion, and the desire some feel to make their religious feelings known - I think this is the problem.

    Though - I do find mormons almost verging on funny. When I lived up north, In the winter I used to always get stopped on the same road, at the same place, most days, but different groups of Canadian or American Mormans, who were "spreading the word" - I figured if this was going to become as much a part of my daily routine as getting a coffee in the morning from the coffee shop was, I should get some facts in order, so I read a bunch about Mormonism, and yeah, that's a funny one. Firstly, it's not much older than my Great Great Grand mother (at a guess, I didn't ever meet her) and secondly most of their teachings are written by a bloke who ran off into the forrest for a while, found a holy book, didn't take the holy book back out of the forest with him, and dictated the whole book to his wife. That being said though, I don't actually think the age of a religion adds any credence to it's authenticity.

    But if people want to believe in their god, and they say a little prayer when they go to sleep, and it's something that makes them feel better about anything it might make them feel better about, then let them do it. Some of the most intelligent people I know are religious, so what.

    I believe in riding my mountain bike very fast down hills in forests - the Horse riders are fine with this as long as we do it respectfully and don't ruin their afternoons - I feel pretty similar about religion as the horse riders do about mountain bikers, let them get on with it, as long as they do so respectfully and don't ruin my day.
     
    Guinevere likes this.
  11. Guinevere

    Guinevere Mega Mom

    Joined:
    8 May 2010
    Posts:
    2,484
    Likes Received:
    176
    Never said I could justify myself... and I don't get evangelical about atheism (until today?).

    I do follow a 'live and let live' ethos. I don't try and convert people to atheism. I don't belong to a humanism society. I don't give to any charities that could be considered to be on a 'side.' It's not a fight. It's a note a 'My morals are better than yours' show of force. It's not a 'I have more people on my side than you do' show of numbers.

    I live, and let live.

    But I can still get annoyed when the elected leader of this country and his old school chums bring up Christianity and ethics and lay claim to them being linked and therefore 'suggest' that those who are not Christian have sub standard ethics.
     
    Last edited: 23 Apr 2014
    Margo Baggins likes this.
  12. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Sep 2001
    Posts:
    4,336
    Likes Received:
    98
    Religion can be used for all that. So can non-religious ideolegies. You're not religious but you've found your own hate.
    AS I see it you've taken every negative aspect of every religion and added in aevery bad thing done by anyone who identified with a religion and used that to describe all relious belief. That sort of thing is dangerous.

    You're here saying you hate Christianity, hate Buddism, hate Islam etc. I'm a small step to say you hate Jews, hate Hindus, hate Sikhs. And this on the basis of the elemts you have picked out from individual religions. So you hate, the religion based on what people may have done in the past because they believed in other religions. Regardless of whether that action has and basis in that religion.

    I think a person gane lead a good life by following his religion and can also do evil in the name of it. It is the individual who makes that choice and the individual who you should hate, not the group he belongs to.

    I dislike collectivist approachs that seek to identidy people by class, religion, nationality etc. I would rather take a view each individual as their own person. In my view the source of much evil is history has been the view that the interests of the group should always outweigh that of the individuals within that group. That's what allows a bomber to blow up a bus station, without knowing exactly who he will kill - in his perception the interests of the group he thinks he is supporting are more importatant that the individuals within that group that happened to end up getting blown up.
     
  13. Guinevere

    Guinevere Mega Mom

    Joined:
    8 May 2010
    Posts:
    2,484
    Likes Received:
    176
    Impossible to say, but religion is a cry to arms that embraces all. It's even near impossible to combat compared to regional / clan / gang disagreements that are ingrained in us.

    Again, who can tell. They should! There's plenty of examples of good people doing good things regardless of their differences. Isn't there a story about a Samaritan?

    Oh no. I never said I hated Christianity or Buddhism or any specific religion. It's the entire concept of ANY religion I'm uncomfortable with.

    EG Buddhism as a religion is wonderful. One of my best friends is a Buddhist. If the whole world was made up of genuine non hypocritical buddhists it would be a nicer world than what we have now.

    But even now Buddhism is again being used as a defence to justify violent hatred. I hate that religion can be used like that.

    You can't combat those that justify their violence with religion. If those of that religion believe that others who follow a different path EG 'deserve to die' what can be done?

    It's hard to admit I hate religion, and that's why I think I raised it here for discussion. I wish religion could be wiped off the earth, but I wouldn't support attempting to ban it.

    Everyone has their right to their beliefs. But the important thing is, that everyone includes those without a formalised 'belief'.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 23 Apr 2014
  14. Jim

    Jim Ineptimodder

    Joined:
    2 Sep 2007
    Posts:
    311
    Likes Received:
    7
    Agreed, but I don't think that's got much to do with religion.

    I'm fairly confident that the only reason it's cropped up is a) to get all of the anti-gay marriage voters back on side and to b) assert another form of Britishness against UKIP.

    Either way, IMO it's all about appealing to the voters that the Tories have hacked off, and nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

    I'm sure Cameron would be complimenting Thor in Parliament next week if 50% of the electorate announced their conversion to Norse.
     
  15. Guinevere

    Guinevere Mega Mom

    Joined:
    8 May 2010
    Posts:
    2,484
    Likes Received:
    176
    Yes... well kinda... well mostly... certainly for religions that believe in a diety.

    It's like learning they truly believe in something like the moon landing conspiracy theories, or that the government is controlling our brains with thought rays emanating from invisible antennas on the tops of supermarkets.

    It might be a viewpoint that fits in with their world view, but it's a viewpoint that isn't rational or logical.

    I'm 'disappointed' because they are demonstrating one inability to look at all the facts in front of them and come up with their own conclusion.

    They have been told something and are believing it without ANY evidence. That's not good. That's dangerous if taken too far.
     
  16. GeorgeStorm

    GeorgeStorm Aggressive PC Builder

    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    6,664
    Likes Received:
    396
    Would you try to change them/treat them differently as a result?

    Also isn't it possible they did look at the facts and they came to that conclusion on their own?
     
  17. kenco_uk

    kenco_uk I unsuccessfully then tried again

    Joined:
    28 Nov 2003
    Posts:
    9,696
    Likes Received:
    308
    That's the same with anything though. Religion, science, whatever.. I thought a few things were the undeniable truth, until I learnt more and then saw how woolly some proof is, even from both for and against perspectives.
     
  18. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Sep 2001
    Posts:
    4,336
    Likes Received:
    98

    Well, people will believe all sorts of things without religious faith. Look at the comments section below a political article on the Guardian or The Telegraph. before you've even hit the page-down there's someone saying "don't belive the mainstream media" and linking to a crank's blog which will no doubt be on about how the uk/eu/un controlled by the rothschilds, bilderbergs, freemasons, muslimsm, illuminati etc. (I do begin to suspect you're never more than five hyperlinks away from the protocols these days).

    Too many people will belive almost anything bad about people they oppose. If I knock up a webpage claiming that at a private dinner David Cameron said the poor should be in workhouses or that Milliband saiing it would have been better if the UK had joined the Warsaw Pact rather than NATO, I'm sure it would get recommended and linked all over the place in no time.

    Hell the Russians seem to be up so something like that with their propaganda over the Ukraine at the moment. There's a lot of "Alternative news" out there at the moment, "secret tape recordings" and whatnot.

    The point is that belief without understanding is dangerous with or without religion. What's more important is waht the peorson is beliving in and whether than is going to harm other people.
     
  19. Teelzebub

    Teelzebub Up yours GOD,Whats best served cold

    Joined:
    27 Nov 2009
    Posts:
    15,796
    Likes Received:
    4,484
    Isn't Buddism a philosophy of life not a religion
     
  20. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    10 Sep 2001
    Posts:
    4,336
    Likes Received:
    98
    Does that mean the OP doesn't need to hate it?
     

Share This Page