E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Maybe would should call trading standards as in their opening line they say "Only Wetherspoon can gather the facts and opinions for you" Haven given it a quick once over i couldn't spot a single fact, the only thing i saw were biased opinions based on untruths.

Starting from the beginning they claim "The EU is fundamentally undemocratic, and that contention has not been challenged." Wrong on both counts, the EU is arguably more democratic than the UK and that's been pointed out many times.

It also seems to be lacking in any substantive evidence of what it claims people said, despite much searching i can't find where or when Mervyn King said "whether we stayed or left made little economic difference" and searching for Stuart Rose's claimed similar comment also turned up nothing.

Maybe he want's to leave in case the EU swings a ban hammer on all those zero hour contract staff working for him.

 

whats interesting is that under swiss law - they have to enact the quota`s of EU immigration by feb 2017 (the referendum from 2014) which ofc is after the swiss elections which are October this year.

the swiss model doesn't work , as they have to negotiate everytime something changes in brussels. in fact , as with our own referendum there is a move to withdraw from the EFTA all together and head to the WTO instead.

as for triggering article 50 (and just reneging on the 1975 European communities act) - suddenly EU imports will get costlier - and Germany would be be 50 billion a year worse off

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...vxgatuFBeJ9kyskVQysKNQ&bvm=bv.124817099,d.ZGg

we are ranked second in trading balance with Germany - they earn a lot from us.

so its in their best interest to rapidly set up trade deals! - in fact if you look at france as well - they export 40 billion year to us

now can you see why they are both saying what they are?


as for the swiss <> china agreement

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2...switzerlands-free-trade-agreement-with-china/

would seem that expert disagree`s with your opinion

 

Indeed they do, although as Germany can't strike a trade deal, that's the EU responsibility after all, they'd be dependent on the rest of the EU agreeing to any trade deal (democratically) and as the EU as a whole only buys %16 of their stuff from us i can't see the EU (as a whole) wanting to sign up to a trade deal in a hurry.

IIRC Their the second biggest importer of UK stuff within the EU, although again they'd have nothing to do with negotiating a trade deal, any deal would (afaik) have to be agreed upon by every member state and as the majority of EU member states buy far less from us they'd either have to convince the others to accept a deal, democracy a.

 

You mean the one in which the UK has to negotiate deals with 161 countries from scratch? Okay... But perhaps you should check out the opinion of MPs on that. The majority of front benchers support staying in the EEA, as indeed seem the majority of the British electorate.

Let's hope that the UK can still afford their goods. But Germany and France won't be setting up trade deals individually --the EU as a whole will. And not every one of its member states exports to the UK and gives a hoot. After all, from your link on the Switzerland-China trade agreement:

The same may apply for a trade agreement with the UK.

Moreover if the UK argues that it can find alternative profitable markets outside the EU, could Germany and France not decide the same? Germany already trades more with the Commonwealth than the UK does (ironically).

Oh, now we are listening to the experts. Well, those trade conditions are fact, not opinion.

@ Corky42: are you also experiencing a déjà vu?

 

But the problem is that he see's it as just a topic to attack the government on, which really doesn't help the "Remain" campaign, does it?

 

That's more of a debate tactic which I touched upon at page 32 post #623, they are afraid of debate because they lack confidence and conviction in their own arguments, it therefore becomes much easier to shout the opposition down and resort to name calling.

You should look at that those aspects too having said that, there's more to life and society than money.

 

That does not excuse such behaviour. Freedom of speech is not just a right; it is also a privilege. If that is not respected we get the sort of campaigning that we have had over the last few months. Nobody is any wiser, the electorate is scared, angry and polarised, and an MP is dead. What a wonderful testimony to British democracy and sovereignty in action.

I have. Feel free to do the same. I certainly wish the Leavers would, given that these are the concerns they raised. So please go tell them there's more to life and society than money because I already know.

Oh, and where is UKIP's support strongest? Where there are the least immigrants. Says something about whether they really are a problem.

 

Doesn't top the greatest facts of having the most stable economy in the world, the highest standard of living in the western world, A GDPP 3/4 or Norway's and twice that of ours and almost twice that of Germany's.
My point is, we can do much better if we try.

Well, Maybe if you did a bit of your own research you might find otherwise, maybe read the whole document.

For a start, Un-democratic....Hmm.....watch the BBC paxman brussels special on "who leads us", very un-biased (for the BBC) and with top dogs and skivs in the EU all telling us "what democracy is"
People need to pay attention to who actually represents us "at the table", NOT the MEP's. You'll be surprised and appauled to be honest.
He shows the process process which they call democratic in fact is not such at all.



Maybe you have been mislead as to what Democracy is?

 

That has a lot more to do with how they run their country than whether or not they are a member of the EU/EEA.

Frankly it doesn't take a genius to work out that everything that is wrong with the UK is down to its governments' libertarian free market approach with minimal investment in public services, housing and infrastructure and a narrow focus on a financial and service economy with neglect of manufacturing and agriculture, and an outdated educational system to match. As a result there is a housing shortage, infrastructure is crumbling, utilities are three years away from browning out, manufacturing and agriculture is in rapid decline, the NHS is struggling and British kids are some of the most poorly educated and the most unhappy in Europe. You know, all the stuff that immigrants get the blame for. There is no investment in this country, just make-believe prosperity built on the sham of a massively overinflated housing market and huge consumer debt.

Compare that to Switzerland which besides functioning as a tax haven (let's not forget) has a strong manufacturing base (and unions), protectionist agriculture and a strong educational system. It also has social housing, public-owned utilities and transport (with some private road works thrown in) and has a government-regulated private health care system that has 30% more of its GDP invested in it than the UK.

I'd like to see the UK do that, I really do. The EU isn't stopping it. Never has.

 

I've known a few people that have lived and worked in Switzerland and generally they were happy to leave.

But I guess should point out that the EU would stop us having even more protectionist agriculture that we already have through the CAP!

 

Dude, if it wasn't for EU subsidies you'd have no agriculture left to protect.

The point is: Switzerland's relative prosperity is due to how it is run, not its relationship to the EU.

It's time to stop blaming foreigners for the sad state of your country and take some ****ing responsibility for the governments you vote into power.

 

Really? Why? Was our agriculture sector dead before 1974?

Seriously the CAP isn't probably the best feature so sell the EU on ( and remember we are both on the Remain side!)

I'd have to agree with that even though we disagree about the evil of David Cameron and the lost genius of Gordon Brown.

 

No, but it was in decline. At this point the EU agricultural subsidies is all that's keeping the farms in areas like Wales going. Remove those subsidies and agriculture in the UK will be a thing of the past.

But I'm sure those subsidies can be paid from all the money saved by not paying into the EU, right?

 

Yo dawg, I heard you like research and videos, so I've posted some research in a video:

 

No it doesn't but unfortunately the EU is a complicated topic, so complicated that it takes time to explain why those zingy one liners and sound bites (mainly from leave but also remain) are factually wrong.

Oh trust me I've done plenty of research, i dare say much more than most.

Perhaps you'd like to point out the evidence that Mr Tim Martin relied upon in that document though, maybe i dismissed it to quickly because it came across, like most supposed evidence from people supporting leave as nothing more than untruths, feel free to take anything said in Mr Tim Martin supposed "facts" propaganda leaflet and put it to an evidence base test, lets see how his "facts" stand up to scrutiny shall we?

Another example of how people supporting leave are misrepresenting the facts, not that remain are any better, Mr Paxman's program talks about sovereignty not democracy, sovereignty that we've willingly cede to the EU for (arguably) the greater good.

Like i said I've done lots of research and I'm sorry to say but you're wrong, when you say the people who represent us at the table i assume you mean the EU council, a council made up from the democratically elected heads of state, heads of state that represent their country in a council that can't pass legislation without a majority vote.

If you're referring to the EU parliament and the commission however that too is made up from democratically elected MEPs and the head of the commission is chosen from the party with the most MEPs, MEPs that we the public elected, so you see there's nothing undemocratic about it.

Like i said it's more democratic, if we take that to mean equality between people, than UK parliament, you don't get unequal representation in the EU like we do in the UK, you don't get elections that see a party with almost %13 of the vote getting 1 MP while another party who only got %5 of the vote ending up with 56 MPs.

If you want undemocratic just look at the UK's 2015 general election results and let it sink in for a moment how unbalanced the percentage of vote to MPs elected is.

On a final note people supporting leave, and i single them out mainly because they're uncritically repeating what they're being told, they need to check if what they're being told is supported by the evidence, untruths are being told by politicians and the media from both remain and leave but when those untruths go unchallenged by the public it can lead us down a dark road.

Ninja edit: Nexxo beat me to the video.

EDIT: Looks like another MP has switched sides.

EDIT 2: I've always found John Oliver's humorous take on things fun to watch.



EDIT 3: It seems to be a video day....

 

Another thought on the connection between the referendum campaign and the murder of Jo Cox:

 

You might want to check where those farm subsides are going.

Most goes to food processors/land owners, I don't know the exact figures but I believe its like 20% goes to actual farms.
There's a long list if you google defra farm subsides, Tate & lyle are top of the list with 500ish mil.

Agriculture will continue with or without a subsidy, it will be just the Mass produced kind rather than small businesses, Its going that way anyway.

Every farmer I know is voting out irregardless to what the NFU says, so tells you how worthwhile they see subsidies.

In reality farmers would benefit from tariffs on food, everyone else looses that one tho.

 

UKIP, Labour and Conservative on the same stage.

So far, it's been encouraging.

Livestream from 1930hrs GMT

http://www.ukip.org/back_brexit?utm_campaign=stream_gateshea&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ukip


Question: How do you get rid of the European Commission?

A question that will echo through the government halls of all member states and trickle down to the voter, the can of worms has been cracked, The next 5 years will be memorable to say the least.

EDIT: hats off to Kate Hoey, Labour MP. An excellent tribute to the late, great Tony Benn

 

You do know that each member of the European Commission is appointed by his/her member state, do you?

 

Not appointed by the people are they!