E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

They do indeed (which is why my job exists!).

People will not challenge their fears unless the value of doing so exceeds their fears. Reason alone doesn't do it; facts alone don't do it. In this case, people would need to personally experience the value of immigration and of being in the EU. Problem is that they are not aware that they are experiencing those benefits, and they don't believe that they are going to lose them after Brexit (which has after all been the thrust of the whole argument of Leave: get rid of the costs; keep all the cake). So I am resigned to Brexit happening. Experience is the best teacher.

 

My position on this is as follows:

1. It is not my place as an EU immigrant to tell Brits what they should decide about their country. I have my opinion about it, and I think that they made a stupid decision, but it is up to them to decide. I keep my EU citizenship regardless, so no skin off my back there.

2. However after living and working here for 26 years, my economic future is inextricably tied up with that of the UK. So if the UK electorate does something that threatens that economic future, then I have a right to feel peeved about it. If my residence rights are suddenly up in the air, I have a right to feel peeved about that. Again, do what you feel you have to do, but I can express my frustration and opinion about it. Free speech being the cornerstone of a democratic society and all that.

3. I also like to think that after 26 years of working in the NHS I have been doing my bit for British society. I am as integrated as it gets. Vote Leave's EU Referendum campaign has been frankly insulting. I have a right to feel peeved about that too. Again, I can express my opinion about it. Free speech. You're welcome.

I cannot comment on personal anecdotes, although it certainly sounds sucky and totally unacceptable. Under EU FoM laws the UK has plenty of scope and opportunity to kick out Slovakian Roma's who do not have a job here, nor a realistic prospect of one, and behave in a criminal or antisocial manner. I suspect that if the UK summarily rounded them up and booted them out, there may be some angry words from Slovakian MEPs in European Parliament but I doubt that any other member state would care, because most feel the same way about the issue and will act the same. The frankly lackadaisical and incompetent manner in which the UK handles immigration (the Windrush scandal being its latest example) is entirely down to UK government. Which is entirely down to the British electorate's voting record. Don't blame the EU; own your own government.

 

Fair do's, no argument from me there.

I'm not saying you shouldn't talk about how you feel, so as far as I'm concerned your freedom of speech is assured still ;-) I do however have to question the merit of the amount of effort been put into the talking done here though. To me, a much better use of freedom of speech and also personal effort would be to bang on doors, rattle a few cages and to do something tangible that could result in a different outcome. If I felt so strongly about an issue I couldn't really do much else. We were brought up to believe that you have no right to complain if you haven't tried to resolve issues, I still believe that now.

Again no danger to FOS. I also understand your feeling towards the leave campaign. I felt peeved at some of the crap the remain camp spouted, like ignoring and/or denying the issues communities like mine faced and still do face.

Not even going to go down that road, suffice to say we will agree to disagree Nexxo. If we had summarily rounded up Slovakian Roma and deported them, we would have had years of EU court appeals, EU interventions and interfering as well you bloody know!!

 

Can we trade? They sound positively delightful compared to the British immigrants whose affiliates *cough* now hold major influence over Westminster. Voting record is not a hit single in China.

 

I learned to pick my battles. First, no Leaver is going to accept an EU immigrant offering them the advice that their decision might have been unwise. Second, this decision was fundamentally emotional and rational debate has proved futile. Third, like many NHS colleagues native and immigrant, I've just done another 10-hour day (of which I will get paid 7.5) dealing with sick people suffering, and I don't have the time or energy to fight for a lost cause. People will have to learn by experience. Perhaps they will. They will certainly experience.

So I'm doing my own time, and nobody else's. I am focusing my energy on doing the job for which I get (mostly) paid and which is actually productive and worthwhile, and doing what I can to consolidate my own financial position and working towards my own exit. Being an EU citizen who speaks four languages means having four ways to say goodbye and good luck (and I can do some sign, so there's that).

The Remain campaign was crap because it was fundamentally insincere: the government refused to take ownership of the problems attributed by Vote Leave to EU immigrants. But at least it did not victimise a whole group of people.

I think that is highly unlikely for the reason that France and Italy have done the same and remain effectively unchallenged.

But, you know, it's easier to blame the EU than your own voting record. Take back control, indeed.

 

So is that because of FoM or because they're Roma? Because speaking from experience that's a fairly common issue when similar groups of travelers have either chosen or been forced to settle down, that's not to say it's acceptable or not a right PITA but to blame that on FoM and by extension the EU seems to be missing the point.

EDIT: In the mean time i want my cake.

 

Indeed. It found that 72% of those who voted leave thought that £615m a week would be too high a price to pay for the bespoke deal; while 78% felt it was worse than they had hoped for when casting their vote in the EU referendum. It seems that although Leavers do not understand the value of being in the EU, they are starting to see the cost of leaving.

 

But at least they aren't racist, after all they said so:

 

So it looks like our better late than never plans on the Irish border have been rejected by the EU, not really surprising, i guess it's down to the EU not thinking creatively.

You'd think one of the 17m people who want to leave the EU could come up with some sort of solution that allows two regions to have different rules, regulations, and laws, without having anything to delineate the two regions.

 

Some Leavers think that the UK should just go into the WTO, and just leave the border open, so that it becomes the EU's problem. Of course they don't realise that the WTO would have something to say about that, and that leaving the border open is kind of contradictory with the stated Brexit aim of having control over one's borders.

But there are even Leavers who say that a hard border would be no problem at all; sectarian violence won't happen because religion is not a big deal anymore these days. Which is why the DUP and Sinn Fein get on so well together in the devolved government of N.I.

 

A few things that may not be at the forefront of Brits' minds:

• In the pic of the unionist bonfire above, "Keep Antrim Tidy" is a joke version of the acronym KAT, for Kill All Taigs (taig being an anglicization of the name Tadhg)
• There hasn't been a sitting government in NI since January 2017 over the Irish Language Act
• Despite this ministers still take a salary, which British taxpayers ultimately pay, given NI's reliance on the block grant from Westminster - 93% of its budget.

 

Well, that's embarrassing...

 

Not as embarrassing as the Conservative party spiting in two, the referendum was always about making sure the electorate only have a single choice when it comes to right of center parties.

You only have to look at what splitting the left of center parties into four has done for their electoral success to see that should be avoided at any cost, the joys of the FPTP system ultimately means you end up with a less democratic society, sort of ironic seeing as Brexit was sold to people on the premise that they should take back control of an inherently undemocratic system.

Better to rule over a swamp than not rule at all.

 

Well, it's not going to get any better for them... Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

Labour: Same, but with a red tie...

Brext, like Trump, seems to touch everything it comes in to contact with...

 

The electorate isn't going to be allowed a say, they've served their purpose so it's safe to go back to ignoring them, besides polling has got a name for being rather unreliable of late so no matter what the polls say the politicians will only take notice if it serves their purpose, as RedFlames points out Labour is happy to go along with things for now, all be it for different reasons.

 

Problem is: no matter what Brexit the government wrought, the majority of the electorate are going to be unhappy with it. And both the EU Referendum and the 2017 GE have shown that voters can then decide to really **** things up.

 

The type of Brexit people end up with isn't going to change the fact that there's only a single right of center party to vote for, for all intents and purposes we may as well have a single party system.

 

Voters won't care. As long as there is a choice of not-Conservatives, the Conservatives are going to have a problem.

 

Unless they can canvince enough disgrintled troy voters that it's Labour/The EU's fault... Sure the electorate will want to stick the boot into the govt, but if they're offered someone/something that enough of them want to stick the boot into more... it might just save them from total implosion.

Meanwhile Labour need to do to the tories what the tories did to them... Convince the electorate that everything remotely bad that happened while the tories were in power, happened because they were in power, whether it's actually the case or not... and, tbh, i'm not sure they can...