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Cooling 4870x2 + Q9550=??

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by Zeel, 9 Apr 2009.

  1. Zeel

    Zeel What's a Dremel?

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    Hello Bit-Tech.net forums!

    First post, so let's get some stuff out in the open.

    1. I'm going to ask questions about watercooling.

    2. I'm a watercooling nubcake.

    3. I live i Sweden, which means that we use the metric system, not inches.

    So, with that out of the way, lets get started shall we!

    Last summer I built a new rig, ASUS P5Q-Deluxe, 4GB Corsair DDR2 8500, Q9550, ATI Radeon 4870x2 and one Velociraptor 300GB. This I stuck in a brand new Antec 1200 with loads of space left over. So far so good, but since I'm always on the lookout for new and interesting things to try I felt it was time for a change, hence the new approach to cooling.

    The main reason for this is actually the graphics card. Sure, it's a beast in games, but the noise and heat! 70-90C (couldn't find the small degree circle) load temps get me nervous every time I fire it up especially when the fans start chasing the temps :sigh:.

    So, the primary goal is the silencing of the GPU, but if I could get som cooling on the CPU at the same time I won't complain. CPU is currently cooled by a TRUE 120 Black Edition (looks pretty cool tbh, a shame to replace it).

    Then, what do I need?

    I guess the obvious is a pump, radiator, reservoir?, two blocks and some tubing. It's at this point I start running into problems.

    Loop: What would the optimal loop look like? Pump, block, block, rad, pump? Or do I need two loops? What goes into "one loop"?

    Pump: How powerful a pump do I need to move the water through this loop? Does two loops require two pumps?

    Radiator: I guess one 240mm rad should do the work, at least for the CPU and GPU separately, but with both on the same loop? A 360mm or two separate 240mm? I got room for one 240mm inside the case, and would love to be able to keep it all inside.

    Reservoir: Do I need one? Or is a T-line enough?

    Blocks: I guess that's the easiest part to figure out, but tips are always welcome. However, there's not really a whole lot of blocks for the 4870x2 out there, and they aren't what you'd call cheap. Danger Dens is around $270.00 :jawdrop:.

    Tubing: From what I gather the tubing is mostly decided on the pump nozzle size. 1/2" seems to be pretty standard, but the blocks range from 3/8" and what not. Will that be a problem?

    So, these are just a few of the questions I had, I'm sure I'll come up with more as time progresses :thumb:. I'm eternally grateful for any insight you have to offer!

    /Z
     
  2. trig

    trig god's little mistake

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    i'll be watching this thread with interest as i too am a wc nub and am considering either a graphics update, a mobo update, or a wc setup.

    one thing that might come up is do you overclock or plan to? me personally i do oc, but tend to knock it down in the warmer months because my study doesn't get the cooling the rest of the house does. I would think that you could knock it out in one loop if you had 1/2" running. but i could be off. also, what is a t-line?
     
  3. Zeel

    Zeel What's a Dremel?

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    Well, as I understand it, a T-line is a smaller form of reservoir. It's essentially just a tube drawn from the top of the case (I think), with a T-junction in the bottom which leads to the pump or rad.

    With a T-line you don't have a big reservoir to draw coolant from, instead it's just the liquid in the system that gets pumped around. This has the added advantage of being easier to drain/fill liquid. Got a youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ3XAOW89Lg&feature=channel_page

    Hope that helps!
     
  4. Zurechial

    Zurechial Elitist

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    The order that different parts of the loop are connected in makes no difference.
    The only part the matters is to have the reservoir or t-line directly before the pump.

    Two loops require two pumps in most situations.
    You could split a single loop into two loops after the pump, but depending on the restrictiction in those loops the single pump may not be enough.
    Additionally, doing that can cause a difference in pressure between the two pseudo-loops and water will always take the path of least resistance, so you might get a good flow through one loop and poor flow through the other.
    That could be fatal to hardware, so either go with a pump for each separate loop, or just use one loop.

    Since you're new to watercooling I'd recommend going with just one loop for now.
    It's an understated part of the WCing learning-process, but I think learning to fit a single loop snugly and tidily into a case can be difficult enough for a first-timer, so you might want to wait until you've built up some confidence before adding a second loop.
    Also bear in mind that pumps create noise with their vibrations, so unless you insulate the pump's virbations from your case with shock-absorbing pads/mounts, adding a 2nd pump means more noise.
    Though if you insist on throwing yourself in at the deep end and using two loops then kudos to you. :thumb:

    If you have a decent pump (such as a Laing DDC 18W) then it's generally fine to put multiple radiators in the same loop.
    It'd only become an issue if you have a weaker pump and are using restrictive blocks in the loop too.
    I'm doing a new build myself next week and planning to put a 3x120(360) and a 2x120(240) in the same loop.
    What case are you using?

    You don't need a reservoir, per say, but they usually make life easier.
    Having a reservoir mounted as the highest part of the loop in your case makes filling the loop and bleeding air out of the loop both easier, as well as keeping your loop well-stocked on coolant.
    One thing to bear in mind with reservoirs that I never seem to see other people mentioning is that reservoirs can 'gurgle' and make other 'splashing' noises depending on how full/empty the reservoir and your loop both are.
    That can be annoying if you're going for a silent build, but it shouldn't happen if you fill the loop completely.

    The EK Supreme LT is currently a great choice for Core 2 Duos and i7s if you're looking for a CPU block.
    I'm not familiar with the 4870x2 blocks out there as I don't have one myself, but as a rule of thumb blocks from EK and Aquacomputer tend to be as good as DangerDen but for less money, so my advice is to shop around and do plenty of google searches on performance comparisons between blocks.

    What you actually need to check for is the threading on your blocks, radiators and reservoir.
    Most WC parts these days are threaded for G1/4" fittings, which means they'll accept any barbs/fittings with G1/4" threads.
    That's not the tubing size though - You can have 1/2" barbs with G1/4" threads, or 3/8" barbs with G1/4" threads, etc.

    1/2" used to be the most popular as it was thought that the greater diameter of 1/2" tubing allowed for better flow rates, but it was found later that the tubing size has very little impact on flow rates since other components in the loop are more restrictive anyway.
    The standard Laing DDC pump has fixed 3/8" nozzles, but modified variants of it (or custom tops) usually have female G1/4" threaded sockets instead so that you can choose whatever fittings you like.
    I'd recommend getting a custom top for the DDC if you get one.

    There seem to be two schools of thought when it comes to sizes & measurements in watercooling.
    Americans tend to use 1/2" and 3/8" tubing and barbs in their builds, while mainland Europeans tend to use 10/8mm & 13/10mm tubing and barbs.
    This means that mainland-European shops tend to have better stock when it comes to the 10/8 and 13/10 metric components - That might influence your choice of tubing and sizes.
    I used to use 3/8" tubing and barbs, but I moved to 13/10mm because I find it much easier to get compression fittings for 13/10, whereas I could only ever find simple barbs for 3/8".

    Since you're living in Europe I'd recommend www.aquatuning.de and www.vcore.dk for your parts.
    I've had hassle with buying WCing parts from other shops around Europe, particularly from smaller UK shops (of which there are many), and had terrible customer service when buying from DangerDen directly in the USA but I can solidly recommend both Aquatuning and VCore.

    Good luck! :thumb:

    /Z (The other one)
     
    Last edited: 9 Apr 2009
  5. stonedsurd

    stonedsurd Is a cackling Yuletide Belgian

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    Very informative post Zurechial, thanks! :thumb:

    Came in handy for my own n00b queries :)
     
  6. Zeel

    Zeel What's a Dremel?

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    Thanks for a great reply! It really helps a lot! First of all I'm gonna take my time and read it all again, while checking the sites you mentioned. There aren't a lot of good suppliers in Sweden, and as long it's inside the EU it shouldn't be a problem (shipping from the US and customs fee is i pain). Oh, btw, the case is an Antec 1200, so space is probably not an issue.

    So, in theory, I should be able to run everything in one loop with two rads? If I get a better pump such as the Lain DDC?

    XPSC has a nice 5.25" reservoir http://www.xspc.biz/bayres.php, which would probably do the job. I could fit one 240 rad below that, on top of the lowest HDD bay. Problem is where to put the second one? Outside on the back? Seems to be a lot of unnecessary tubing.

    Maybe I should just start with either the CPU or GPU, and add the other one when I'm more comfortable with the setup.

    Many thanks again for your reply, +1 as they say :).
     
  7. stonedsurd

    stonedsurd Is a cackling Yuletide Belgian

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    Exactly what I'm planning.
     
  8. Zeel

    Zeel What's a Dremel?

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    Oh, forgot one thing. About the pump, what is more advisable, high flow rate or high pressure? I guess that depends on the blocks (high resistance blocks need high pressure, low resistance blocks with high flow rate means you can add more to the loop)?

    Its just that the differences are major, but the price isn't that different.

    Example:

    Lain DDC 1T-Plus got a flow rate of 600l/h, pressure of 4.7m (weird way to measure pressure btw...)http://www.vcore.dk/shop/eng/laing-ddc-1t-plus-719p.html

    Laing D5-Vario 1/2 has 1500l/h and a pressure of 3.7m.
    http://www.vcore.dk/shop/eng/laing-d5-vario-1-824p.html

    Guess I would need a custom top for both these ones, seeing as none of them has 1/4 thread.

    EDIT: Oh, the price difference is about 10 quid, or 8 bucks, depending on currency :)
     
    Last edited: 9 Apr 2009
  9. Zurechial

    Zurechial Elitist

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    No problem, but don't take my opinions as canon on the topic.
    There are as many opinions out there about the right way to watercool as there are people watercooling their systems, so the best approach is to read as many different opinions as you can and make up your own mind on what seems best based on what you read.
    Sites like bit-tech and www.xtremesystems.org are the best places for this kind of thing. :)


    That always seems to be the problem with using 2 rads, finding space for a 2nd one.
    You mentioned an important point there too that I forgot to mention before - Try to use as little tubing as possible.
    A tidy loop with short runs between components and as little wasted tubing as possible is almost always better than making a loop more complicated than it needs to be.
    I personally think externally-mounted radiators look terrible and I like to keep everything tidy and confined within the case, but that isn't always possible.
    You may have to crack out the dremel and mod the case to suit. ;)

    That's usually a good approach, it's what I did with my first WC loop, too.
    The only thing to bear in mind there is that you might get fantastic temps and a great overclock on the CPU at first, but then as soon as you add the GPU to the loop more heat is being dumped into the water and you'll need to tone down your CPU overclock to keep temperatures safe.
    Using 2x240 Rads will make that much less of an issue though. :)

    The rule of thumb is usually to aim for the best flow rate and avoid restrictive blocks.
    I'm no expert on fluid dynamics (there are others here on bit-tech and on XS who know a lot more about this stuff than me), but as far as I know a block's performance is dependent on its ability to break up the boundary layer of the flowing water with an internal surface that creates turbulence, such as pins or pits directly under the nozzle.

    These pins/pits tend to make the block slightly more restrictive, depending on their design, so It seems to be a trade-off between breaking up the water's boundary layer (and thus making more of the water absorb heat from the copper than just the external molecules in the waterflow) and maintaining a high flow-rate through the block.

    There are charts and comparisons on XS showing the differences between various blocks and indicating which blocks give the best balance between thermal performance and flow-rate, have a look around there or google it and you'll find something. :)

    As far as I can recall, head-pressure is measured in metres as that's the height the water would shoot upwards against gravity when pumped.
    I could be wrong on that count though.
     
  10. Zeel

    Zeel What's a Dremel?

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    Yeah, that seems to be the standard way of measuring it for pumps, but I'm more used to seeing PSI, Bar, or mm/Hg (mercury). Just not used to it I guess. I can see why one would use head pressure instead though.
     
  11. Zeel

    Zeel What's a Dremel?

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    I'm making great headway here, a lot of thoughts and questions have gotten an answer. Gotten a few ideas for pumps, rads and blocks, and tubing. My next question is the fittings. What type is advisable to minimize leakage? Compression seems to be the most expensive but are they the best? How does it work, were would I need those barbs/fittings/connectors (haven't gotten the lingo down apparently)?

    I guess they're built with standard male-female parts, but what do I get when I buy one? Both or just the female? Quick connect seems to be the logical choice, but the quick connect fittings I saw on www.aquatining.de seems to be female in bot ends, which would mean I need a setup like this;

    Block/pump/rad->male fitting->quick connect (female and male )->tube. Am I completely off my rocker or have I missed something? Seems bulky and unnecessary...

    Found some links; this one goes into the block http://www.vcore.dk/shop/eng/1-4-bspp-1297p.html, and then you fasten this quick connect http://www.vcore.dk/shop/eng/hi-flow-kobling-med-918p.html on it. The sizes aren't right, but you get the idea.
     
    Last edited: 9 Apr 2009
  12. Zurechial

    Zurechial Elitist

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    If you want cheap & cheerful non-leaking fittings then I'd go with the standard barbs from EK, with worm-drive clamps fitted over the tubing.
    I'm using compression fittings in my new build and I find them fairly convenient and leak-proof so far, as well as looking a lot better than barbs & clamps.
    The caveats though are that they are indeed more expensive and I've never managed to find them for the larger-OD tubing such as 3/8" or 1/2" - I've only ever found compression fittings for 13/10mm and smaller.

    Slightly off your rocker. ;)
    You don't need quick connect fittings at all unless you're doing something elaborate or want to be able to separate your components & blocks from your radiator/res/pump without cutting tubing or draining the loop.
    Just get standard male fittings/barbs with male G1/4" threads to screw into the sockets on the radiators/pump/blocks/reservoir and attach the tubing directly.
    You can use quick connect fittings, but even the best ones are a slight leak-viability, they're bulky and they're expensive.
    The simplest solution is usually best. :)

    Some shots from my (messy) old build:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Zeel

    Zeel What's a Dremel?

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    Ok, that's a valid point I guess. I was under the impression that 1/2" tubing had the same diameter as 13/10mm, thanks for clearing that up. Seems that 1/2" is closer to 19/13mm. Would've been fun trying to install that big a tube on a small fitting... Strange that there isn't compression fittings for the larger ID tubing, when 1/2" is so popular. Maybe 13/10 mm tubing is enough for a high flow rate system?
     
  14. That Bald Guy

    That Bald Guy Hi-Tech Redneck

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    alt+0176 = °

    and welcome!
     
  15. Zeel

    Zeel What's a Dremel?

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    Thank you, if I could just decode what 0176 means :)!

    EDIT: Found it! °!
     
    Last edited: 10 Apr 2009
  16. Zurechial

    Zurechial Elitist

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    3/8" tubing has an inner diameter of ~9.5mm and an outer diameter of ~16mm so you'll sometimes see it referred to as 16/10mm on metric-centric sites.
    For that reason, 13/10mm is likely going to give you the same kind of flow rate as 3/8".

    A significant difference I found with the 13/10mm vs 3/8" is its resistance to kinking.
    The 3/8" ClearFlex tubing I have can make tighter bends without kinking than the 13/10mm ClearFlex because of its thicker walls.

    Tubing with a thinner OD but the same ID will give you a very slight bit more room in your case, but will be more prone to kinking in tight bends.

    So, like everything else, it's a tradeoff.

    (Very) Rough comparison of the most common tubing sizes (taking ClearFlex as a typical brand of tubing) based solely on my own observations:


    <-1/2" (19/13mm)->
    -Has fallen out of popularity with mainland-European suppliers
    -More available in the USA & with some UK suppliers, the same goes for its corresponding fittings

    <-3/8" (16/10mm) ->
    -Available in most stores everywhere
    -High availability of barbs and fittings (apart from special fittings such as compression)
    -Resistant to kinking in all but extreme bends
    -Arguably 'high-flow'

    <-13/10mm ->
    -Popular in mainland-European stores
    -High availability of corresponding fittings
    -Same flow rate as 3/8" but less resistant to kinking

    <-10/8mm ->
    -Same availability as 13/10
    -Higher pressure, lower flow rate
    -Prone to kinking in my in experience
    -Tubing tends to only be available in this size as PVC or Tygon, I haven't found ClearFlex in this size

    The thing is, you'll actually find that tubing-diameter matters very, very little in terms of actual performance.
    Check out this thread by Cathar on XS:
    http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=147767

    Less than 1°C in the difference.
    That's why I choose my tubing based on availability of parts, its tendency towards kinking and how it looks, rather than worrying about flow-rates or pressure. :)
    3/8" is my tubing-size of choice, I think it strikes the best balance in most regards, but I chose 13/10mm for my latest simply because it's easier to get the compression fittings that I wanted to use and I'm not too concerned about kinking.
     
    Last edited: 11 Apr 2009
  17. Zeel

    Zeel What's a Dremel?

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    Again, thanks for a very informative reply! What would I do without you :)?

    I guess if you're careful when planning and drawing the tubing kinks could be minimized. So far I have no plans on cooling the chipset, so there wont be a whole lot of tubing to run.
     

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