Other Any car nuts in here ?, having a real issue with a garage and im clueless

Hi guys, looking for a tad of advice.

Before i start this is long winded cars a ford fiesta 2013 zetec petrol NJ63 PZL.

TLDR : Mechanic now trying to charge me for something he stated was his mistake blaming other failed car parts.

Soo i know a car moves using its magical powers, not quite, but im a pc guy i ken nowt about cars. Long story short

Car needed timing belt and mot. Took it to a local garage, decent reviews etc. Recommended by a friend. Reasonable price.

Dropped it off the 11th, last Monday, get a call saying needed a spring and a drop link...ok cool, wasnt to much more. Call to pick up Wednesday car done mot passed. Cool. Total bill £360, for timing belt, water pump, service (antifreeze, oil, filter change, air filter and screen wash)

Drove the car about 20 miles to a friends and back, whilst it was fine. It felt like it was.... Jumping a little for lack of better word. Like once or twice, power gone then back.

So Thursday take the car into town, wife said it made a squeal when she turned it on, went away after a second and worked fine, she went to the store and back. Cool, so i drive it, works fine, park up, go about my business, come back go to go home and massive queel when i went to take off, car lost all power.

Turned it off in fear (popped the hood, no idea why i dont even know what id be looking for), tried it again started fine. So decided na i dont like this ill take it to the garage that fixed it. Drove fine, got around the corner and when i had to set off from lights, massive squeel again and then lost power and just cut out.

So was like nope, not driving thing, got out called the garage, was only another 800 yards away, they came and towed it. Phone call later that day, says was the apprentice that fitted the timing belt, its snapped and come off, he thinks its not been tensioned properly.

Says its bent 6 valves, and needs a head gasket thing and head needs skimmed. They accept the issue, apologies and will cover costs.

Ok cool, no car but genuine mistake and owned up to it, no worries just need to get a lift from friends the next few days. Fast forward to The following Tuesday 19th, phone call, so the place we get to skim the head is backlogged were not getting the car back till Thursday should be ready Friday.

Ok again cool, not great but least they let me know.

Now. Today i call them at 4.30pm, asking if i should head up to fix the car, guy says its nearly back together but I've actually finally found the issue, I've been at it the last few day .(pretty sure he already told me the issue and accepted liability), states that it was actually nothing they done that caused the problem with the valves, states that my aircon pump had failed, and that it has ceased up and that's what caused the whole issue, so at that point im like oooook.

States aircon pumps are expensive and id be better with a second hand part as it will be much cheaper, should take about and hour, (his hourly rate is about £40 or £45 an hour, cant mind).

So i said ok pay the part cost and labor and i can get the car back tomorrow what's the total cost, he hesitates on the phone and then goes yeah well that's something we will need to discuss because im now out the £380 it cost to get everything done to your car, we will need to come up with a solution to that.

At that i halted the call, told him so im now going to be charged for something you already told me was your fault and were taking liability for, ive been without a car for now nearly 2 weeks and at the end of it im now expected to pay another £480 odd pounds. Told him i would call him back and i was going to seek further advice on the matter.

I called 2 local garages who quoted me originally for the car to be fixed, they were a lot more expensive, both are telling me a buggered aircon pump even if ceased shouldn't be able to cause all the damage he's telling me.

Citizen's advice and trading standards were closed by this point, but i now dont know what to do, i wasnt expecting such a large bill and i feel this guys either cowboy or not being truthful.

But i didnt know its legal to hold a car if i dont pay, i called a local place about sourcing a part, they gave me the number for a local scrap yard that has parts that are salvaged from cars. Should be able to pick up an aircon pump for £45 tomorrow and if he charges me for a belt and hourly rate looking about 50 ish give or take, and i think if i fight with the guy on price im gonna be billed for the whole £480 odd, or if i dont and reason with him at best im gonna be out 300 odd and cover half of his costs just to get my car back.

Do i bite the lowest cost possible and go to trading standards and try to get my money back through small claims or ?

Cause all i have is phone calls, and the guys been decent up till this last phone call, which is where its turned, so i dont know if he will even put all this on an invoice or what. Mainly thinking i have no recourse other than to pay.

Dont really want to do the modern day thing and slate on facebook, any advice be great

 

Wait, what the actual..............

OK I'm not familiar with your motor, so I'd suggest you pick up a Haynes and confirm this, however;

The air con pump should run off the aux / serpentine belt not the timing belt.
If the serpentine belt goes it'll take out the air con, alternator & power steering, but it's got bugger all to do with the timing and a car will run fine without it, just be a bugger to steer and won't charge the battery.

The timing belt should only go around the crank, the cam / cams and the water pump, and have an idler or tensioner in there too, it's not unheard of for water pumps to crap the bed and take out the belt and kill an engine, normal practise is to replace the water pump, idler and tensioner whenever the timing belt is replaced.

I'm off for a google to see if I can find your belt routing.

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Edit;
I can't find anything definitive on the routing, but I think I'm right.
The squealing would have been your aux belt slipping (aux belts are grooved in the direction of travel, timing belts are toothed), and could well be a failed A/C pump, but for the life of me I can't see how that would have taken out the timing belt

 

Ill have a google myself, thats a better explanation than the mechanics told me on the phone, they just said yeah it cant cause that, good explanation, and ammunition for me tomorrow when im going down to see the guy

 

As above, the timing belt and the belt that runs the Aircon are separate. I've had a cursory search to confirm the 1.2 Zetec engine isn't some odd exception and I'm fairly confident that it's not; effectively the garage changed the timing belt and then it snapped, and they really ought to be fixing it.

 

I've edited my original reply.
It just dosen't make sense, but I'll caveat that with my only experience being that whilst I do my own belt changes (back before I learnt to buy cars with chains) but I've never had any problems.

 

see the thing is the aux belt (i think he called it the alternator belt so makes sense), that was still on, still in place on the car. I know this cause i checked and his wee apprentice when they picked up the car went, damb we were hoping it was the alternator belt and not the timing belt

 

To add to what has been said above, the screeching you heard is consistent with an alternator or auxiliary belt slipping. Can you be sure they are telling the truth about the cam belt and valves? Methinks you would be in no doubt something terminal had happened to the engine, not just a loss of power. I have seen results of a cam belt failure, they were drastic. If the cam belt really has failed and you have got away with needing only a few valves and a head skim and gasket, you have been very lucky.

 

Just to reflect what others have said here, a failure of any part of the aircon system would have absolutely no effect on the timing belt. If the timing belt has failed or was incorrectly installed and has slipped, that would result in bent valves, no question, I've had it happen. The fact they have just replaced this part means they are trying to fob you off and recoup some of their cost by (probably) pretending to replace the aircon pump.

At best, the car had some pre-existing issue with the aux/alternator belt or the aircon and it's just unlucky that it's decided to fail at this point. At worst, there is nothing at all wrong with the aux belt or aircon pump and they are outright lying to you to mitigate the cost to them, which will be just shy of £1000 at a minimum.

I'm not familiar with Ford engine layouts, but on many VAG cars the aircon pump is on the opposite side of the engine to the timing belt, right at the bottom. I'd do some research on where the timing belt, aux belt and aircon pump are on your car, then demand the mechanic shows you the exact method by which the aircon pump failure has caused the timing belt to slip or snap. Then laugh at him and threaten to call the police if he doesn't return your car in at least the state you left it in with him the first time around. Citizen's Advice will probably be a bit of a chocolate teapot in this scenario, but Trading Standards will almost certainly be interested to hear their outrageous explanation.

 

I think I'd be inclined to visit a Ford Dealer and get their take on this as well. It may get to the stage where you need an independent report as evidence for the small claims court or similar and who better than a Ford Dealer for the report.

 

Hi, im not sure, tbh the only way i would be able to confirm would be to take it to another garage, which im getting the feeling they wont allow me to do, and theoretically that problem has now been fixed so i guess im not gonna be any the wiser. I do thing they are just trying to recoup on money for what it cost them as they are a small garage.

Hi man, yeah i think there is something fishy going on, for the work that was done i was £360, and there stating that it cost them £380 for everything to get done afterwards, and i get the feeling they are wanting that plus labor of £40 odd an hour as well, but its apparently taken him 2 days to finally find the issue (they have had it nearly 2 weeks now). Here is a pic of the engine i have from the side, from my understanding the bottom right pulley is the aircon pump, the belt goes around the other pulleys for the alternator and i assume from reading the power steering maybe ?, the timing belt section looks to be completely enclosed, so im unsure how the thing at the bottom right (aircon pump) can snap the timing belt but not its own belt and bend 6 valves requiring a skim and head gasket

 

Thats not a bad idea, its the cost im worried about, paying this was a tad of a stuggle (had some large gas and electic bills come out this month, kid broke his bed and had to get a new one etc, missus missed a shift as well cause we couldnt afford the taxi for her work and no one was free to take her as it was a night shift)

I was trying to get the haynes manual so i could show it to the guy as like some form of evidence to say look, even the user manual shows these here and here (blag it as best i can )

 

Silly question. I assume not recommended. But if they have fixed the initial problem the timing belt. I could drive the car ?, to another garage about half a mile away, and not damage it any more, just might be a pain with no power steering am i correct :? @Shirty @mrlongbeard

 

If the valves are already damaged attempting to drive it further could cause more damage to the valves, pistons and bores at least. That's assuming it'd still start. Definitely not recommended.

 

That parts already been done from what i was told, the valves have been replaced, the head gasket has been done, head thing skimmed, timing belt redone, it was only on reassembly that that they noticed the aircon pump when trying to put the alternator belt back on

 

If it's got no aux / serpentine belt it'll have no power steering and no alternator (no air con either, but hey it's October).
You'll have to muscle the steering (top tip, once you get moving don't stop) but it'll be drivable providing you've got a decent charge in your battery.

 

The circle bottom left if the crank (ok pully on the very end of) The pulley bottom right is your air con, very middle is an idler (may have a tensioner built in) top right is your alternator (provides the magic pixies to your battery)

See the grooves on the crank and air con pulleys, they're to stop the belt walking off the pulleys nothing more.
That you had a squeal, meant that the crank pully was still turning and the belt was slipping on a.n.other pully, either the tensioner isn't up to muster, or, as they say the air con packed up (seized)

But there was a squeal, this is important, it means the crank was still turning regardless of what the air con pump or aux belt was doing, a seized aux belt dosen't have enough friction to cause the timing belt any problems, look at all them teeth (different engine, but same design across all cars that use timing belts)


The aux belt will slip n squeal like a stuck pig all day long, but aside from being bloody annoying won't cause damage to the engine (not if the timing belt is installed and tensioned properly)

 

The aircon pump has a clutch inside too, which when the AC is not on, the pulley just spins freely and doesn't turn the AC pump, even if it seized with the AC clutch engaged the friction material of the AC clutch would give before anything internally in the engine gave up, and then the Aux belt would snap before anything internally had any problems.

For £380 the garage should just be sucking it up, even if it was the AC pump, that should really have been spotted while doing the timing belt as you'd have to remove the Aux belt to do the job and by the looks of that Aux belt, there's no tensioner, (they do use stretch belts on fords, bosses transit had one and it was a pig to get on) so you have to turn the pulleys to get the belt onto them.

As said above, timing belt failure is pretty serious and the car wouldn't run with a snapped belt, the "jumping" response of the engine may be a sign that they didn't get the timing correct when changing the belt, bit of a rookie mistake even for an apprentice (who gets an apprentice to change a cam belt if they're not 100% sure they're capable and willing to deal with the potential problems if they get it wrong?)

 

Well update for everyone. Not that i don't trust any of you guys, you defo pointed me in the right direction of what to look for and say, so i called several local garages to confirm, and all told me the exact same as on here, what he said the first time was what happened not the aircon, couldn't cause it to damage the engine the belt would snap first, only way the belt would have come off was if it wasn't put on correct, even worse that he let an apprentice do it.

So i called the garage to speak to the guy today, armed with all my new found knowledge, i wasn't angry or anything on the phone, i let him speak and say his part, started going down the route of all the things that could make a timing belt to come off, making it seem like it was an easy thing to happen, told him that i didn't agree, spoke with several other professional, some of whom he said he knew, let him know that i knew now how the belts worked, and that he had already admitted fault early on, and i felt he was just trying to recoup money, if that was an issue initially then why wasn't it noticed, if i leave it there how would i know it wont have another diagnosis of the next few days.

He said he would like to be paid for the cost its cost him, and the labor he done on the car as it was £380 quid for everything to be done and then he spent 5 hours working on it at £48 an hour. So i told him that's fine, ill pay the bill, but im letting you know that ill be taking it further, ill be reporting it to trading standards, and ill be taking it elsewhere to recheck your work, and it will go on as a small claim which i will file, as i completely disagree with this outcome, i also wanted an invoice for the place it was taken to for the head to be skimmed and all the new parts that was put in it, showing that its had to have the timing belt done only a few days after it was previously done, and i wanted it noted and signed that i whilst i was paying the bill i did not agree with the outcome.

Guy went on a little bit of a tangent about how he is a nice guy and works hard, and has 3 kids and is just trying to do the best he can, he says he is confidant that this was a factor in the damage, after that he stated he wouldn't hold my car in lien and i told him id be sending a recovery truck to come pick it up today, let him know i was working and that ill pass his details on incase he has to go for a breakdown or leave for parts or whatever. With agreement that i was not paying a penny.

So i head to work, recovery truck turned up at 12 to get the car, where he did the same thing with the guy, repeated himself over and over, and the driver whos a well known mechanic 1 town over apparently told him that he was wrong, making stuff up, he f'd up and just to take it on the nose s*** happens, you made the mistake.

Car is now with the garage and hes going to check it over the next few days, get me an aircon pump and a new alternator belt and fingers crossed the guys actually done the work right the second time around.

 

Good for you for having the guts to stand up. I roll over so easily, especially if the amount of money (for me) is not enough to be worth fighting over. I just hate the conflict and stress so avoid it!

 

Glad its heading in the right direction.

I had my cambelt done on my Vectra and I started hearing this rattling sound on the way down to pick my daughter up from her work experience work at a vets near my in laws (120 mile round trip), it got worse and worse so I took it back to the garage and the belt was shredded.

Luckily I caught it before it did damage and they replaced the lot free of charge (as they should), the garage got really lucky, good garage but I ditched them for a local guy as every job I took it in for was £250 every time.