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News Canonical to halve Ubuntu support lifetime

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Gareth Halfacree, 20 Mar 2013.

  1. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Oh, it's not designed to be a user interface? That's why Microsoft tells people who just want their DVD drive to start working again to Start -> Run -> Regedit, is it?

    Oh, Phil. You really seem so incredibly desperate to prove that Linux is bad. I'm not sure why; I have no desire in proving A. N. Other operating system is bad, except in refutation of your claims. Why does it offend you so that people use, and enjoy using, Linux? What personal hurt does it do to you?

    Tell you what, if it'll make you feel better: I'll install Windows 8 on my mother's currently Ubuntu-based desktop and laptop. That is, if and only if you are personally willing to talk her through fixing any problems she may have. Don't worry, I've only had to do that once under Ubuntu when the wireless card in the laptop stopped working; I'm sure you won't get dozens of phone calls a week like I used to when she ran Windows.

    Deal?

    Also, just to prove how incredibly misleading your claims are, here's a picture of how my mother changes settings on her computer:
    [​IMG]
    (The screenshot is from my installation: some entries, including Unsettings and Ubuntu Tweak, are aftermarket add-ons I've installed and don't appear on her computer.)

    The sooner you admit you have a problem, Phil, the sooner you can get help.
     
    Last edited: 25 Mar 2013
  2. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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  3. Margo Baggins

    Margo Baggins I'm good at Soldering Super Moderator

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    I think you are very confused between the desktop versions and the server versions.

    Desktop versions have a nice gui - meaning, you never have to do any of the config file diving etc. Server versions have no gui and is all text. I LOVE TERMINAL, I think, it's extremely accessible - and I think you dislike it on the grounds that you don't understand it or aren't bothered to figure it out/learn it. Which is fine, ultimately that is entirely your choice, but it doesn't by that regard make it "bad".

    There are quite a few things that in windows you have to open the command line in order to achieve something - like how do you edit your hosts file without opening it from an elevated command prompt?
     
  4. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Yup, pretty sure. What with my having taken the screenshot just now on my desktop, rather than resorting to Google Image Search'ing for a picture that supports my argument.

    Also, that's Terminator: a multi-pane terminal. It's not default software on any version of Linux I've ever seen. Similar packages are available for Windows. From left to right: Mutt mail client, top system monitor, dmesg kernel messages, Terminator manual page (you know - the documentation you say doesn't exist), IRC client, IPTraf traffic monitor, source code for some kind of terminal emulator, 'more' (or possibly 'less') outputting some long list of details.

    Not a single one of those is anything to do with changing any settings. It's certainly not how a non-technical user would see Linux: that person has *chosen* to make his experience look like that, and gone to quite some effort to make it happen. You can do the same on Windows. Go ahead: open a dozen command prompt windows. Oh, look, it's the same. Amazing.

    EDIT: In fact, here's PowerCmd for Windows, a multi-pane Terminator-like command prompt. Strangely enough, I found it from a link where a Windows user is asking for something akin to Terminator for Windows because it's just that good - using the exact same picture with which you hoped to prove Linux useless. That's right, folks: Linux is so useless that people ask how to make Windows do the same thing.

    Any other comforting lies you're still clinging to, Phil?
     
    Last edited: 25 Mar 2013
  5. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag What's a Dremel?

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    That right there is EXACTLY proving the point Gareth is trying to make about you. Like it's mind blowing how ironic this is and yet you're still not getting it. I hope you realize that every post you're creating is making you seem more and more ignorant on how OSes work, linux in particular.
     
  6. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    Sorry, I was distracted by trying not to spray my coffee all over the place with amusement at the line "device eth0 has entered promiscuous mode."

    Maybe, but it's also a fairly typical example of how a linux machine's desktop ends up looking after you've actually tried to achieve anything with it. Three different ways to quit things, and massive quantities of repetitive, spurious precision, because of course that helps.
     
  7. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    You've never heard the term before? Haven't done much networking, have you. Oh, and it's not a Linux term: it's very much a part of the Ethernet RFCs, which means it's the same terminology regardless of operating system. Yes, that's right, Phil: Windows understands promiscuous mode as well. Without laughing, even.
    I can honestly say that none of my Linux machines have ever looked like that - and I achieve plenty with 'em. Heck, I work every single day on this desktop - I wrote a best-selling book on it. About, in a large part, Linux, in fact - another wonderful example of the documentation that you say doesn't exist. I can say without fear of inaccuracy that I know a lot better than you what a 'typical' Linux desktop looks like.

    A 'typical' Linux desktop looks a lot more like mine than the Terminator-running image you showed. Hell, a Google Image Search proves that - and I know how much you love Google Image Searches.

    EDIT: Three ways to quit things? It's a good job Windows isn't like that. Oh, wait, my mistake. It's totally like that.

    Now, fancy dropping the ad hominems and strawmen, or have you realised that without those you don't actually have an argument?
     
    Last edited: 25 Mar 2013
  8. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    I would be the first to accept that windows 8's new UI looks like absolute arse. Quite how one is supposed to run any productivity application within a UI made up entirely of two-inch squares is anyone's guess.

    Anyway, your attitude is ridiculous; I haven't attacked you personally at all. I know you may feel attacked, but I'm fairly used to that reaction from linux people. I'm not criticising you; I'm criticising the OS. I know people get religious about it a lot but please do try to maintain that separation. Conversely, you've already directly called me a liar, among other things.

    But OK, if that's your style, let's do it that way. Why am I vocal about this?

    Because I'm fed up with being the target of this sort of conversation. I think I'm a reasonably advanced windows user, which means that I quite frequently end up using software that brings me into contact with the open source world. I am frequently told, as are many experienced windows people, that I should use linux. Obviously, I have to then explain that this is impossible, and this being linux people, that's taken as a personal insult.

    For the record, my interaction with computers is mainly as a video editor. I use Adobe's After Effects several days a week. There is nothing, no application, absolutely nothing whatsoever on Linux which comes even remotely close to what AE does at the same price (or free). Usually, I'm told that Kino is really good, or that Cinelerra is really good. Anyone who knows either of these projects is sorely aware that Kino is basically Windows Movie Maker, and Cinelerra is a proper opensource project - that is, forever incomplete and unreliable, and at this rate, decades from feature completion and usability.

    So yeah, Linux people, if my refusal to drop AE for Kino makes me an idiot, then I am a very considerable idiot.

    So maybe I get a particularly negative impression because I work in the media and even its greatest supporters tend to admit that Linux's media-fu is not strong. But what's really sad is that the app support isn't really the big problem. The linux attitude is just crushing. It is expected that everything is difficult to use. It is expected that documentation is halfhearted or absent. It is expected to be inconsistent and unreliable. I've done jobs where I was required to use linux, and I existed in a constant state of fear that I would appear to be incompetent because everything was taking so long compared to similar tasks on Windows. And in that job, eventually, having voiced these fears, I was gently led aside, hyperventilating mightily at the anticipation of an imminent letting-go, and told (I quote directly):

    "This is just normal ****. Don't worry about it."

    It wasn't about linux being slower than windows, or more difficult than windows. It was about linux being slow, and difficult, on its own terms.

    So, if you want to take something positive from this conversation, be aware that what I'm doing is actually giving you a list of instructions in how to stop linux sucking. It's usually impossible to do this because - as you have - people start shrieking ad-hominem and defending the status quo, as if the status quo is somehow good or acceptable.
     
  9. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    But you have: I'm a Linux person, and you're vocal in your dislike of Linux people. After all, all Linux people are all alike, aren't they, Phil? You're 'used to that reaction from linux people.' We're a homogenous mass that simply shouts "DURR, HURR, USE LUNIX" at people. You know, exactly like I haven't done throughout this thread.

    Also, you are a liar, Phil. I've proven that several times in this thread alone. You claim that a 'typical' Linux desktop looks like Terminator; I have proven that it does not. You claimed that everything you could need in Windows can be found in the registry; I have proven that it cannot, that applications have a tendency to store their own settings in INI files located in hidden directories. You have claimed that Linux does not have any documentation; you proved that incorrect yourself, by posting an image that included the manual page for the running application clearly visible. You have claimed that you cannot achieve anything with Linux without getting your hands dirty at the terminal; my mother has proven that you can, quite easily.

    Shall I go on?

    That's a very good reason for you not to use Linux. For you, Linux would be useless. Shame you didn't just use that perfectly justified reason, instead of going off on one of your trademark rants about how Linux is clearly completely useless for everyone.

    Aaaand we're back to the lies. I can provide you with my mother's email address, if you'd like. Ask her if she finds Linux difficult to use.
    No, you have not given me a list of how to stop Linux sucking. Linux doesn't suck. Every point you've made, bar "there is no video editor for Linux as good as Adobe After Effects," has been proven invalid.

    If you genuinely find Linux difficult to use, post details about your personal experiences. You made a start above, then went back to your usual tactics. Your point about not having a good video editor is excellent: with luck, the state of one of the Linux video editing tools will improve to the point where it's suitable for professional use; even better, perhaps Adobe will port After Effects across to Linux. For now, though, it's clear: After Effects users should not use Linux. This 'Linux person' will not argue with that.
     
  10. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    @Phil: Let's see my Linux computer (HTPC/Server/desktop for 24/7 applications).

    Right now there is XBMC running locally and JDownloader, Chromium and X-Chat IRC client throught remote desktop (yes, using the Windows remote desktop client).
    A Windows equivalent would be... XBMC running locally and JDownloader, Chrome and X-Chat (yes, the same GUI IRC client, just compiled for Windows) running through Remote desktop.

    I guess my Linux desktop(s) are just not enough "Linux"-like.
     
  11. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    Well, it's a bit of a generalisation, but if the hat fits!
     
  12. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag What's a Dremel?

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    The attitude isn't as bad as you think it is, but it is necessary nonetheless. Everything you claim was true... 7 years ago. It's not about being religious, it's about you making negative and false claims about something. The irony is religious people are exactly the type who refuse to look the other way regardless of being shown hard facts.

    If you're targeted this often, how have you not realized that maybe, just maybe, you're not right? I know how you feel, there have been times where I've had people gang up on me even if it was just an opinion, but what you're saying here is more oudated facts than opinionated.

    This I don't disagree with. I'm not sure what people recommended you to use linux for, but considering the way you prefer your system to run (which is fine) is not something linux is known to cooperate with. Treat linux like Windows and you'll hate it. Expect it to do things the way Windows does and you'll hate it.

    There is 1 professional program that will be released for Linux, I believe called Lightworks, but I'm sure it doesn't compete with Premier. But see, your situation with video editing is a reason why you shouldn't use Linux. This comes back to my point about how you can't treat linux like Windows - it won't play your games, it won't run your creative programs, and it won't have a "double click to install" solution. Every OS has it's place, and I think it is very narrow minded to expect 1 to be good at all tasks; I state this in general, not targeting you. I personally feel linux happens to be better than Windows in nearly every way in a kernel perspective. But in userland, Windows is probably more ideal if you just want something that will run.

    I wouldn't say linux being difficult to use is expected. Linux is a power user's OS, Windows is for the general public. If you want the ability to do almost anything you can imagine with a computer, it will get complicated. As of right now, I don't think linux is suitable for the average person. People who install it and dread opening a terminal even once are going to have a bad time (even if they never need to open one). People who install it and expect fancy desktop effects are also going to hate it. People who expect it to replace Windows entirely will hate it the most.

    What in particular was so slow? Today, GPU drivers are the only thing that's slower compared to Windows AFAIK. Everything else tends to be faster on average.
     
  13. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Really? That's your response to my post? Wow, Phil. Just: wow. Not going to cover anything else brought up therein?

    Congratulations: you've ended this discussion exactly as you started it, on a bare-faced and insulting lie. Bravo, sir, bravo.
     
  14. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Oooh! I'm getting all tingly seeing that! :brrr:

    /hits download button.
     
  15. Margo Baggins

    Margo Baggins I'm good at Soldering Super Moderator

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    I'm all over powercmd - downloading it now!
     
  16. will_123

    will_123 Small childs brain in a big body

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    While on the topic of terminals, anybody have a good terminal app for KDE? Something like iTerm or Terminator? Yakuake really doesn’t appeal to me and it seems to be the suggested one after normal konsole?
     
  17. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    Huh ? http://software.jessies.org/terminator/
     
  18. will_123

    will_123 Small childs brain in a big body

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    Yes but its desinged in GTK3 and looks out of place on KDE which is Qt based. Its actually fine anyway it would appear im just an idiot and you can do split view in konsole! this makes me happy :)
     
  19. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    There are two terminal apps called Terminator. The one you have linked to is written in Java, cross-platform and does not have the paned view; this one, which is the one 99% of people will be talking about in a Linux context, is exclusive to GNOME on Linux. It's perfectly possible to install it under KDE (or A. N. Other desktop,) but it'll pull in the rest of GNOME with it, making it a pretty hefty install.

    Yes, it's confusing. Blame whichever of the two Terminators came second.
     
  20. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag What's a Dremel?

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    What's wrong with konsole? It does everything I need it to. If you want something over the top fancy, you could go for Terminology
     

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