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China decides to oppress Muslims...

Discussion in 'Serious' started by modgodtanvir, 10 Sep 2008.

  1. yodasarmpit

    yodasarmpit No longer the other Brett.

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    Lets not turn this into a pissing match between Christianity and Islam, both are as screwed up as each other.
     
  2. modgodtanvir

    modgodtanvir Prepare - for Mortal Bumbat!

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    Oh no, lets not go there...

    As an aside, has anybody here ever watched those debating nutters in Hyde Park? Every Sunday you get a load of keen Jews, Christians and Muslims yelling at each other for prolonged periods of time... Quite the spectacle :p
     
  3. EmJay

    EmJay New Member

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    Oh gosh, one of my college friends did that. Imagine a 5'6" girl with long blond hair arguing about divorce rules with a dozen middle aged Muslim men... Girl's got guts, if not a great sense of timing. :D
     
  4. mmorgue

    mmorgue New Member

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    It's a shame religion has the stranglehold on people that it does, and that atheists are so universally looked down upon.

    Religion has no place in government -- I certainly don't want an MP with *any* religious belief (let's not be prejudiced here, let's condemn them all!) making rules which affect me that could have been influenced by their backward draconian way of thinking.

    How much better this country (UK) would be if religion was just... gone.

    I think it was Jesse Venture who once said, Religion is a crutch for the weak. How right he was.. ;)
     
  5. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Freakshow! :clap:
     
  6. Mo_

    Mo_ Did this world come by chance?

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    Its seems China is doing nothing of that kind

    I dont see china doing nothing.
    "more than 10 million Muslims celebrated the event(EID in China)" In order to celebrate EID its a must to FAST.

    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-10/03/content_7075341.htm

    guardian needs to get there facts right next time.:lol:
     
  7. Jumeira_Johnny

    Jumeira_Johnny 16032 - High plains drifter

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    I have celebrated Eid for the last 5 years and didn't fast. So no, it is not a must to fast.
     
  8. Mo_

    Mo_ Did this world come by chance?

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    In respect Jumeria,

    Fasting is one among the fundamental and back bone of islam.. there are 5 of them. ie 1. shahada 2. prayers 3. zakat 4. fasting 5 Hajj... so if you don’t have one them is like having a house with 4walls and no roof.. ? that’s not going to be a house is it?
     
  9. Jumeira_Johnny

    Jumeira_Johnny 16032 - High plains drifter

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    In respect,

    Not every one living in islamic countries is a muslim. Does that mean we don't celebrate Eid. no, we do. Just as muslims celebrate chirstmas in western cultures. It's about understanding the people and world around you. Not about narrow minded isolationism.
     
  10. Techno-Dann

    Techno-Dann Disgruntled kumquat

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    As a somewhat-relevant aside, this one guy suggests that many terrorists aren't motivated by religious beliefs at all - it's definitely worth reading and thinking about.
     
  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Gosh, you reckon? ;)

    I did a big post on this ages ago. Terrorists are terrorists mainly because they just like to kill people. They feel inadequate and powerless, and insignificant and alienated from the world, so they fixate on some scapegoat as rationalisation (else they'd have to admit to themselves that they are just doing what they do because of how they feel about themselves) and terrorise people to make themselves feel powerful and important. Birds of a feather then flock together and marginalisation and tribal dynamics ensue: in-group vs. out-group, self-exaltation vs. depersonalisation of the "enemy", development of their own culture and ideologies (totalitarian religions and philosophies are a great source of inspiration but it could just as well be fundamentalist Christianity, or Fascism or Communism...) and recruitment of others like themselves. Their cause may be a valid one but the key factor is that they do not pursue it in a valid or productive manner --in fact, their methods are often counterproductive.

    For a reason: they're not playing to win-- they're in it to keep playing. Their aim is to continue the conflict, not resolve it. It is their adopted raison d'etre, after all. This is why you can't win a War on Terror™. You have to change the game: make them want to join a cooler, more constructive group that makes them feel included, empowered and meaningful in society. But how good are our governments at playing that game? They like to encourage in-group vs. out-group thinking too...
     
    Last edited: 4 Oct 2008
  12. Haramzadeh

    Haramzadeh Son of Sin

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    Well that's only partially true Nexxo. To try to divorce religion ( in particular Islam ) from today's terrorism is rather naive though.

    They way I look at it is that the people who are homocidal and extreme are like barrel of gunpowder. And fanatical religion is the spark. You can't have one without the other. The only real way to win the war on islamic extremism is for a movement for secular society to take root in Muslim nations. It's not impossible or even unlikely, it happened in Turkey and there are many Muslim peoples who are starting to become fed up with the Islamists and realizing that these religious extremists have little to offer at the end of the day.
     
  13. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    It is a bit more complicated than that (there are the manipulators and the self-sacrificing co-dependents, for instance), but the group dynamic is basically the same for everyone --Islam, Christianity, Fascism or Communism are just (some of) the flavours. If it wasn't fundamentalist Islam, it would be fundamentalist Something Else. It just has to ba a philosophy, and it has to be fundamentalist.

    Look at the Christian fundies in the US running through the woods of Washington State in camouflage gear, for instance. Look at Hitler Germany --a whole bunch of alienated inadequates who started as wannabe terrorists but became politically savvie and thus influential enough to become the ruling party (by no means an exception to the rule --cf. most Communist regimes, Israel, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan...).
     
  14. Mo_

    Mo_ Did this world come by chance?

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    I interpreted this wrong. I thought you was a muslim. Sorry :)
     
  15. Haramzadeh

    Haramzadeh Son of Sin

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    I don't disagree with your basic idea, but I wasn't talking about fundamentalism and "violence" in general. I was referring more specifically to Islamist violence that has gripped Iraqi, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Pakistan and to a lesser extent in some other Muslim nations.

    There is a reason why most of today's suicide bombers are overwhelmingly muslim with the tiny expection of Tamil (hindu) suicide bombers in Sri Lanka. Not every Muslim suicide bomber are idiots or "evil" by nature. Just look at the young Pakistani *doctors* who tried to blow up Glasgow airport. You can't enable both educated and uneducated people to give up their perfectly normal lives to pursue suicide violence without a comprehensive religious ideology to back that. Taking your own life is no simple matter, even when there compelling political causes its still hard to get people to sacrifice themselves. Only a ideology that brainwashes people strongly with powerful concepts of martyrdom, holy war, and rewards in the afterlife can propel people towards that direction.

    There is quite a huge difference between modern Islamist terrroism vs all the previous "terrorist"/"guerilla" movements of the past. Practical goals are very vague and almost non-existent when it comes to these Al-Qaeda rooted fanatics. That's very hard to negotiate or reason with.
     
  16. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    If I understand you correctly, you are thinking that there is something special about the role of fundamentalist religion in terrorism. There isn't. Anything that fosters in-group cohesion and out-group rejection/persecution/paranoia will do. Culture, ideology, language, nationality, even which football team you support (think of football riots). It is about simplistic, shake-and-bake positive group identity for people who have no positive identity of this own. Belong and be Somebody. Religions fundamentalism works particularly well, but any fundamentalism does.

    It's not about goals except the continued existence of the group. Guerrillas may have a politically valid goal, but it is the way they pursue it that matters. What you find is that once you get past the aim of overthrowing the current regime by force they have no constructive ideas of how to run the country either: cf. the Taliban. They just find a new enemy to rail against.

    It is not about education or intelligence either, but about self-esteem and a positive sense of identity. Whether you are a doctor or not has little to do with that. Trust me, I work with them. They're humans like the rest of us.
     
    Last edited: 4 Oct 2008

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