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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. Yadda

    Yadda Minimodder

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    Quite. Awful though, speaking to someone like that.
     
  2. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    It's what happens when people play on other peoples fears, scapegoating is a tactic as old as the hills.

    EDIT: Is it just me that thinks it rather odd how Japan has issued a list of Brexit demands and we've yet to even decide what we want.
     
  3. Yadda

    Yadda Minimodder

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    Sure, it's a very sad state of affairs.

    Here's a link to the story, there's a video report at the top of the page.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37278903
     
  4. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Not really. They appear to have invested in Britain because it has access to the EU market and people and it wants to protect those investments.

    Although I can think of a certain tax-havenesque country that is keeping its EU access and wouldn't say no to some Japanese investment.
     
  5. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    I'm not denying they've invested in Britain although doesn't that just highlight our failings even more? I mean we've invested far more in our own country than Japan and we've had longer to think about things, yet for some reason we're still none the wiser on what we want from Brexit.

    EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that i expected more details from TPTB now their back at work and had meetings with other world leaders, instead we just got more vacuous statements and platitudes.
     
    Last edited: 6 Sep 2016
  6. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    It's easy for Japan to list off their demands because they already know what they want, which is for things to stay more or less as they are already.

    Leaving the EU is a monstrous task by comparison. It's only been a few months since the vote and I think a plan will come in dribs and drabs as things get put in place. I think Britain probably has to do huge amounts of work to get to the point where it can figure out the work it actually needs to do to leave the EU. I've seen this referred to as meta-work in a non Brexit context.

    So basically:

    Meta-work --> Plan --> Brexit Work --> Brexit --> Fire fighting.

    :)
     
  7. impar

    impar Minimodder

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    Greetings!
    I thought you wanted to brexit. Because Brexit is to brexit.
     
  8. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    The Japanese do things differently in international business (in the very olden days I did a brief research project on that for my cross-cultural psychology minor). Whereas Western business tends to limit itself to a rational analysis of the behaviour of international business partners in terms of good/bad in financial/trade terms, the Japanese view such behaviour much more in terms of what it says about a nation's character and values. Personal relationships are a big deal to them, as is face, honour, virtue and obligation. Giri: your word is your bond and all that.

    So basically if the UK enticed Japanese investment with the promise that it was a good staging post for accessing business in the EU, then that is giri that the UK is expected to make good on. If it breaks that promise, that will be regarded as a dishonourable act and it will acquire the reputation as an unreliable, possibly deceitful business partner. It is not in the nature of the Japanese to complain about it --you shouldn't have to be reminded of your giri. They will just quietly withdraw from further business dealings with you.

    In that regard, this list of demands is unusual and bad news, because it suggests that Japan thinks the UK is so stupid that it needs its obligations spelling out to it --basically that the UK just doesn't 'get it', and that is already a big black mark against future business relationships.
     
  9. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Well yea but you'd think there'd be some sort of rough idea of what we want, a few bullet points on the key issues, some sort of metaplan, an overview, a framework, anything other than vacuous statements and platitudes.

    If only we knew what that meant. ;)
    We didn't know before the referendum and it seems we still have no idea.

    If only i could disagree with them. :D
     
  10. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    From what I understand the general framework is

    Step 1: Kick the foreigners out
    Step 2: ......
    Step 3: Profit!
     
  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I'll get my coat.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Yadda

    Yadda Minimodder

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    :D

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    ^^^ That is David Davis, when civil servants have finally explained the Brexit options to him.

    Brexit street demonstration:

    "What do we want?! --er, we don't know"
    "When do we want it?! --uh, sometime later, perhaps?"

    And what should worry the Brexiteers even more: Japan is just saying what the whole of Asia is thinking.
     
    Last edited: 6 Sep 2016
  14. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Leaving the EU is not about what people want, it's about what they don't want. Which is immigrants, collaboration and compromise with other countries and paying fees. So that's what they don't want. What they get as a result is probably not as much of a concern.
     
    Last edited: 7 Sep 2016
  15. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    What they want is a return to a romanticised past where everybody had jobs, housing was affordable, there were no NHS queues, everybody knew their place and Britain could polish the medals of its Imperial past at the coal-effect gas fire over tea and scones every Sunday. Getting rid of immigrants, co-operation with other countries and membership fees is just seen as the obvious way to achieve that.

    What they'll get, well...
     
    Last edited: 7 Sep 2016
  16. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    If you don't want something isn't it a good idea to also know what you do want, e.g i don't want to give money to my gas&electric suppler but i know i want to stay warm this winter.
     
  17. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    I try and minimize discussing things in metaphor because its an even bigger waste of time than arguing semantics with Nexxo. No metaphor is perfect and so the discussion just ends up as picking apart or extending the metaphor rather than discussing the actual topic. Metaphors are only really useful as a temporary stop gap when teaching a topic, before eventually replacing the metaphor with actual information. And start trek. Star trek would be nothing without metaphors.

    I think they don't want immigrants, international compromise, etc and don't really care what the consequences of getting rid of those things are. It might be sensible to care about the consequences but it would also be sensible to develop a full brexit plan before putting it to a public vote. There is nothing sensible about Brexit.
     
    Last edited: 7 Sep 2016
  18. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I think that you are right in that people are focused on what they don't want. But they don't want those things for reasons, which are about what they do want.

    The problem is that often the lines drawn between those two things (things we want --> therefore things we don't want) are distinctly hazy and contrived or even non-existent. An example of this is how people don't want higher taxes, but do want a better NHS.

    Leavers have been made to believe (which was easy, because they wanted to believe what fits easily in their a priori belief system and ability to comprehend) that there is an obvious, linear connection between the two things which simply does not exist in reality.
     
    Last edited: 7 Sep 2016
  19. javaman

    javaman May irritate Eyes

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    Time for my lynching. I'm a Brexit voter and happy with my decision.
    Correct it was a vote based on what I don't want vs voting for something I do but that was a result of a vote based on black or white when in reality a shad of grey is needed.
    I won't deny that a lot of Brexit voters are racist and the large vocal majority voted based on wanting black and not grey.

    Where I stand is I wanted change. I don't believe Europe has the individual peoples interest at heart, I don't believe they have the UK or Ireland's interest at heart and as a result are slowly undermining with one size fits all approach to everything.
    Cameron played a major part in that his joke of a "deal" which was nothing more than a preplanned show. It proved Europe cant be negoiated with over points that matter. Not to mention Cameron not once was able to "measure" how great Europe actually was. If Europe provided so much he would of held up evidence of trade deal X or policy Y provides this much rather than the constant "the world will end but i cant say how". Voting remain changed nothing voting leave was a chance to change things

    Why I voted leave

    1. Europe is an unmovable object and cannot be negioated with.
    2. Due to size Europe cannot care about individuals and paints in giant brush strokes. One size does not fit all. The bitter Irony is that Brexit happened cause of a majority vote yet according to remain the majority isn't right.
    3. Politicians are out of touch as it is. They lay blame on Europe for policies to the point its impossible to tell who initiated what. I want to hold the person I vote for accountable not some abstract layer.
    4. Immigration, I support the benefits of immigration but an open door policy is just as foolish as a closed one. This is a perfect example of a grey area. I'm not a racist for wanting tighter controls on who enters the country.
    5. I still believe but since neither side provided any actual information I had to attempt to work this out myself, that trade deals with other countries without Europes meddling would be in our interest. None of the remain politicians I talked to in regards to this where able to provide information beyond "we only trade with Europe" and when pressed why we couldn't deal with anyone directly ourselves "because we trade with Europe" :/
    6. I no longer want to be responsible for bailing out Europe's mess. If that ship sinks I want to have in place an escape plan (above point).
    7. We pay in to Europe then what? We get more out, how is that fair? We get the same out, what is the point? We get less out how is that fair? Britain should pay for itself. I don't care about making other countries great, ultimately I don't care about making Britain great either but it is where my bed is.

    Call me racist, stupid whatever. I voted leave for those reasons and I still believe (especially point 5) that it was the right thing to do.
     
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  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    1. I find it funny how people argue that Germany, as the biggest EU economy, basically rules it, while the UK, as the second largest EU economy, is a powerless, helpless victim.
    2. Being in the majority does not automatically make you right. And IIRC the Brexit movement was in the minority for decades. That did not stop it trying to push its will through.
    3. Won't change anything. Be prepared for politicians to invent new abstract layers to disavow accountability --like they have been doing with the NHS, for instance. But it's interesting how you aim to solve a lack of accountability by politicians by centralising more power with them.
    4. The UK always had controls; it just never chose to exercise them. Just look at its non-EU immigration figures. Look how it failed to impose the 7-year break.
    5. Other countries in the EU trade more with the Commonwealth and the rest of the world than the UK does. The trade agreements are there. Why doesn't the UK use them? Meanwhile in a globalising world economy every country is trying to become part of a trade block. Bigger markets mean greater leverage.
    6. The UK never had to bail out the EU's mess. It's not in the Eurozone. Cameron negotiated additional exemptions from any such obligations. But in a global economy there is no "out". If the EU crashes (unlikely), the UK will go down with it. Remember the 2008 credit crunch. The US crashed and the whole world crashed with it.
    7. The EU is not a zero-sum game. A lot of the benefits of membership (and its fees) are indirect but substantial. You are about to find out what they are when you lose them.

    You are especially wrong on 5.
     
    Last edited: 7 Sep 2016

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