Motors Help me pick a car

So after 20 years (and 100k miles) of trusty trouble free motoring the cumulative cost of repairing knackered parts on my Corsa is disproportionate to its value so I need (and want) a replacement.

I have been keeping track of EVs and that would be my preference going forward for a number of reasons but I also recognising that the cost is large versus similar combustion cars - in particular in the second hand market.

Constraints: Family car (4 of us), 200+ mile range due to visiting family

I have been considering the following:

• Kia EV6 - This is my "want" car but £45k for a new one (or £42k for nearly new) is a bit rich for my tastes. I can afford it but don't really want to piss £700+ a month on a car when my current cars cost £700 a year to run!
• Kia Niro (electric) - Second Hand - Have identified a few low mileage (<20k) "old" e-Niros (i.e. not the new type) for £22-30k. Great range if you grab a 64kWh model. Not the prettiest of cars but apparently a great workhorse car.
• Hyundai Kona (electric) - Second Hand - As above really in particular as they are sister cars.
• Nissan Leaf (newer gen)- Second Hand - Can pick up the larger battery pack option (>200 mile range) from around £15k but with a fair chunk of miles up to £30k for nearly new. Concern is around the Chadamo charger as Type 2 chargers look to be the norm now for UK/Europe. Does support Vehicle to Home/Grid which is a nice advantage due to having solar panels.
• ID3 / Cupra Born - Essentially the same battery platform - Can be had for around the £30k mark as nearly new but could be a bit small for a family of 4 (but maybe not). Suspect there is a healthy VW tax on the ID3 price.
• Honda Civic (Diesel) - I used to have a 1.6 TDI Civic Sport (2016) as a company car - loved it but handed it back when I changed jobs (just before the pandemic). Can be had around the £8k to £12k mark for the previous gen model (my preferred form). Pros: Cheap(er) Cons: Diesel. Would allow me to see how the electric car market evolves over the next few years and importantly for more 2nd hand electrics to become available.

Preference is buying outright (with bank loan) vs lease/PCP unless the monthly on the lease/PCP is small enough (~£300 p/m) to be just another bill.

So what have I missed, forgotten or otherwise overlooked? Any feedback from owners of the above? Should I get of my idealistic hobby horse and just buy a cheap 2nd hand combustion car and use the extra money for holidays and house renovations?

 

Second hand Tesla Model 3s used prices have tanks due to price drops hard to argue any other used EV unless you don't like them, they have the best efficiency, technology and warranty.

But a secondhand ICE car is not a bad choice is you want to save a stack of dough, it's still a valid choice.

Or even a new one, the Honda civic hybrid (e-hev) looks to make diesel redundant with actual 55-80mpgs from a petrol, which means you'd need an EV that does >3.5 miles per kw to get near it for fuel costs. (at standard rates, if you are lucky to have solar or cheap tariffs you will do better with EV at home)

For cheap new EV there is the MG4, might be too small but worth a look, or the very unsexy MG5.

 

I got an MG4 Trophy ("2023 Car of the Year") a couple of weeks ago, and really like it.
There are 3 models:-

• SE SR - 51kW LFP battery, 125kW (170hp) motor, WLTP range = 218 miles, £27k
  
• SE LR - 64kW NCM battery, 150kW (200hp) motor, WLTP range = 280 miles, £29.5k
  
• Trophy - 64kW NCM battery, 150kW (200hp) motor, more toys, WLTP range = 270 miles, £32.5k

The only option is paint, you can have either white or blue for free, black or grey metallic for £545 & red or orange "tri-coat" for £695 (Orange is Trophy spec only).

For things like real-world range & charging speeds, I direct you to https://ev-database.org

 

Curve-ball here, are there any realalistic options for EV cars for those of us that have to park on roads? i.e. dont have a drive/off-road parking or an "owned" spot?

 

I would go the Diesel route and, see how the EV market and, the charging network, develops over the next few years. Big advances in battery technology are in the pipeline.

 

I had noticed the model 3 from Tesla used were in the £30k mark. Some concern around build quality and aftercare though. Similar concerns with the mg but that is probably just bias on my part

 

Only you can say, that comes down to charging options in your area and where you go, you'll have to do some research on the likes of zap map to see what is available.

For me it'd be fine, I have a 150Kw charging station 0.5 mile down the road so I'd just do that like you would go to a petrol station, but for our use case the missus charges for free at work so that works well

Downside of not being able to home charge is that it can cost a lot more to fill an EV than an ICE car.

 

Many councils are installing chargers in car parks and on lampposts these days.

 

Heard horror stories about little prangs in any tesla due to the manufacturing process - basically a write off due to their glue/ riveting process and having to remove most of the front to sort the bumper out. It may just be misinformation but it put me off looking at them when I was in the market for a new car a few years ago.

 

Hello! EV driver since 2017 here.

What is your budget and how much range do you need day-to-day?
On your 200 miles trip, can you charge at destination?
Remember to factor in £1000 for home charger install.
Presumably you have driveway and happy to switch to EV tariff. I see you also have solar PV to off-set higher daytime prices. Charging at 10-12p/kWh, it's still waaaaaay cheaper than any fossil fuelled car. My £6 commute back when diesel were £1.25 in a 55mpg car costs less than £2 with EV.

Buying second hand or nearly new EV now seems to be the perfect time. They had been in free-fall for a few months, there are many super cheap deals to be had.

Out of your list in OP, I'd disregard Leaf. With Tesla (CCS) opening up more and more of their charging network and networks like Ionity only having CCS, driving Leaf long distance will become more and more of a chore. Up until Gridserve took over Electric Highway, I didn't have much problem driving Leaf about, as EV owner from 2017. But after Gridserve replaced all motorway service with newer units, Chademo plugs are becoming harder and harder to find.
Unless you've already signed up to Indra's V2H trail (I am, just had site survey done last week)... it's not possible to buy it and I wouldn't pay full price for outdated plug. You should wait for CCS or Type 2 V2H solutions.

Kia EV6 I test drove. It's okay. I hate the way heat pump is an optional extra and the infotainment is not great. Still has an on/off button for some reason. It's a good car, but after adding heat pump, it's overpriced when compared to EV tech inside Model Y, IMHO.

MG4 and Model 3 are both excellent options. Though Leaf/ID3/MG4 seems to be similar size, not sure if big enough. Kona is the smallest car, probably not big enough for family of 4.

Another worthy of considering is Ioniq (classic, but with 38 kWh battery). If its range suits you, it is super efficient and drives great. They can be had for £16-20k and most importantly they have app control whereas earlier 28 kWh version does not.



On Tesla:

I've had great experience with Tesla aftercare. I noticed some mist in my Model Y taillights, using the app filled out service request and sent the photos. It was sorted within a week on my driveway while I WFH. The mobile service tech was saying all modern cars with LED mists up and it'll mist up again, but he changed it anyway because it was approved as warranty. So refreshing compared to warranty experience at traditional dealerships, playing their chinese whispers.

On parts, Tesla seems to have been engineered to be plug and play, 4 taillight clusters were changed within a hour. Front bumper is as easy on-off as other cars (see RSEV video of their early Model Y bumper replacement) But I do get why people say small bump may write off the car. I've noticed there's odd things going on, eg. there isn't much rear bumper, any rear impact means boot lid will be toast.

For second hand Model 3's, I recommend going for a 2020 or later Made in China version. Their build quality should be much better than US built. They also have octo-valve heat pumps and longer lasting LFP batteries. They have black side window surround rather than chrome.

One thing is insurance costs. Tesla tend to be in highest brackets, you may find insurance to be prohibitorily expensive. Get a quote first.

 

I went for a PHEV for this exact reason.
I do have public chargers nearby, but can't guarantee use of them. So have the backup of petrol. The reduced electric range still covers most of my local journeys, assuming I can charge it.
Still waiting for delivery though, ordered last May...

 

Hang on a minute, why is this thread in Hardware and labelled as Portable?

Can we expect a build-log after your purchase?

 

Caterham Kit car plz

 

Whilst it is cheaper on the off peak tariff, you have to be conscious as to whether you do enough mileage to take advantage of that versus the rest of your electric usage, Octopus go will only work for us if we have a very big home storage battery, our day time usage is too high, we would loose out despite cheap night rates, actually cheaper for me to stay on British Gas

You can't actually get go now either, it has to be intelligent or something that requires specific cars or a specific charger (Ohme) capable of being control by Octopus, so if that is your goal bear that in mind.

 

Good point, it depends on how much miles you can charge at home. I hope OP mention of solar panels will slightly help off-set day-time cost.
My smart meter stopped providing a reading for about 1.8 months. I calculated I would be liable for £500 if they cannot get my readings. Luckily they got my readings and I only need to pay £200, over 1000 kWh was used off-peak compared to under 400 kWh other times.

Octopus Go is still available at 12p/kWh.
https://octopus.energy/smart/go/

Intelligent is the next thing, it's cheaper (10p/kWh), longer. Best of all it can guarantee your car is fully charged by allocating more off-peak hours if needed. But you need compatible charger or car.

My current plan is V2H the Leaf, use Tesla to sign up Intelligent tariff at 10p/kWh. Charge both overnight. Hopefully average no more than 12p/kWh for all my import electricity.

 

The "budget" is a flexible thing right now. Realistically much north of £30k is probably more than I want to spend as this becomes a large monthly bill and I have plenty of home renovation work still to go. I would need to do the math on offpeak vs "normal" electric tarrifs but the solar PVs would help top up the car if I go with a smart charger either way.

Good feedback on the EV6, still to sit in or drive one so my want for it is basically based on video reviews. Might need to take a more serious look at Model 3 as I had discounted as being too pricey.

Cars are hardware and portable ... right?...guys?....right?

 

How much excess can your solar generate? I think somewhere in the charging spec says it needs a minimum of 1.2 kW, so all smart chargers will drop down to 1.2 kW but no less. For my small 3 kWp W-E solar install, it's useless.

Looks like Model 3 (late 2020 made in China) is right in your price range. If you buy from Tesla inventory, you get enhanced autopilot included and more warranty.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-se...year-from=2021&exclude-writeoff-categories=on
But do get an insurance quote first!

TBH, you can't go wrong with any Korean EV's. Go test drive them and see which ones you like, which ones suit you personally.


I personally hugely dislike the traditional dealership experience. So at similar price, I chose the car without the stupid dealership network.

 

Yes the dealership experience still ties you into the servicing model for warranty etc and so has additional cost to it, Tesla does not do this but at the same time I don't necessarily agree with that either, most people will just treat it like an appliance, it is a potentially dangerous killing machine after all if you are driving about with unnoticed defects, so cars do still need a once over from someone IMO, keep things sweet as it is still a machine with many parts subject to wear etc. .

I'd take an EV6 over a Tesla, just because I prefer what it looks like, not a fan of the seats/headrest though, I'd have to get the GT for some normal seats......and the performance

 

The GT (not the confusingly named GT Line which is just a trim level of the normal EV6) is a bit of beast. £60k is definitely too rich for my taste.

Will definitely look at the model 3 insurance quotes but my insurance is pretty much rock bottom currently (lots of years of NCB) so hopefully not too painful!

The used Model S inventory on the tesla site even start at £30k

 

EV's are a con.
Also do you really need a car as big as most ev's (unless you're going for something like a leaf etc) when you've come from a corsa mate? it'll suck parking it even with sensors etc and not fit in as many spaces/be easily dinged by other cars doors and crap to drive down narrow country roads etc...
Imho you'd be better off spend a quarter if that of the price of an ev on something simple and older that's petrol and small engine wise, many cars even stuff from 2000s like the old civics can run on 12 of the 16valves and get 46mpg on the motorway like the ep2 civic sport 1.6L for example which also was made it 5 door form if that's more your thing, then there's bigger engined cars that can deactivate cylinders when cruising to again retain awesome mpg...

Regarding the EV con:
Copied from another forum.

"A bit of a rant incoming,but I am getting a tad fedup with governments and companies jumping on the "environmental" bandwagon,but the moment you step back a lot of really does not make any economic or even industrial sense.


Why the need for Oil,Gas and Coal won't magically disappear.

Oil,Gas and Coal are still required for chemical production,fertiliser production,steel,etc. Also good luck trying to electrify larger and longer range aircraft and helicopters,etc.

The reality is the world's economy still requires Oil,Gas and Coal and the countries which produce them will still benefit from selling it to everyone else. In Europe,we are in a reality distortion sphere - we have exported most of our resource extraction abroad and most of our heavy industry to save money and to "pretend" we have reduced our emissions. Then moan at countries like China and India for pollution whilst we need all the items they need,which means they need huge amounts of Oil,Gas and Coal just to make stuff we require. People can't add two and two together sadly.

It's made us very vulnerable to external influences,and issues with our currencies(due to running permanent deficits and lots of money printing). This is not at all sustainable.

Plus building all these new renewable sources,batteries,etc means more industrial manufacturing....which means you need Oil,Gas and Coal to do it. You need to have mines to dig up all the minerals,and the ability to refine them. Then you need to transport it. This also all produces pollution - people will find the "Green Revolution" is going to have to start with front loading a ton of CO2 emissions and other pollutants to do so. Even wind turbines need steel,lubricants,etc to build and maintain them.

Then the anti-nuclear power lot don't want nuclear. So that means in Europe we screwed. We lack cheap energy to make stuff. We are lacking reliable energy and the costs are going up for heavy industry which needs hydrocarbon sources.

That is on top of the cost of many of these "Green" technologies.

The power requirements behind electrification

Electrical cars are an example of marketing having worked wonders on people's minds. They for one cost way too much - especially with the dire public transport in this country,how can many afford to buy even a "cheap" electric car. Just walk around and see how many 20 year old ICE cars are still in use.

But lots of environmentalists,also think we can simply plug in new electrical cars into the current energy grid. You can't simply replace millions of cars like that. Firstly:
1.)The load carrying capacity of the electrical grid needs to be increased
2.)The whole electrical power generation capacity of the grid has to MASSIVELY be ramped up.

Have people looked at the plans of many governments. They PLAN,to replace EXISTING electical generation capacity with more renewable energy. NOT INCREASE TOTAL ELECTRICAL GENERATION CAPACITY BY HUGE AMOUNTS USING 100% RENEWABLES.




So in 22 years we increased capacity by 25% but our population increased by nearly 15% over that time period. Plus a lot of that renewable capacity is not stored or can be used properly:
https://news.sky.com/story/britons-...power-they-make-on-the-windiest-days-12822156

So the actual useable increase in renewables is probably far less. But there are also problems with energy storage too.

Has anyone considered how hard it will be the store even 50% of the energy required to run the country for even a day? Where is all the energy storage going to be built and more importantly how long is going to take to be built? All I see is why slow progress.

If anything making it far cheaper for households to have their own solar power and local energy storage probably makes more sense,as solar can be used to cover baseline needs,ie,fridges,etc which should lower the baseline load on the national grid.

What do you think is going to happen when we move over to replacing ICE cars with electric cars and all our heating/cooking with electical powered alternatives. A car needs Kilowatts alone:
https://evbox.com/uk-en/electric-cars/tesla/tesla-model-3

Upto 11KW for a Tesla Model 3.

4KW for a heatpump to replace an average boiler:
https://www.viessmann.co.uk/en/heating-advice/heat-pumps/do-heat-pumps-use-a-lot-of-electricity.html

Around 0.5KW to 1.5KW to replace gas hobs and ovens:
https://www.comparethemarket.com/energy/content/which-appliances-use-the-most-energy/

Now compare that to your TV,PC,lights,fridge,freezer,etc which all consume far less power which are all measure in the 100s of Watts. You could easily see a doubling or tripling of households peak power needs.

Why do you think there is a sudden interest in nuclear power worldwide. Because there will be a shortfall in actual electricity production,especially as storage seems to be lagging behind installed renewable capacity.

The con of using environmentalism to hide built in obsolescence

Electric cars=new profit making goldmine for car companies.

It gets even worse - many people use ICE cars for well over a decade and there is still a market for poorer people to buy old cars because they lack upfront capital. Want to use a decade old electic car? This is at the point things like battery wear,etc might start to be an issue.

But try replacing a few kaput parts of an old car battery - car companies have engineered them on purpose,so the whole battery needs to be replaced and a new or refurbished battery costs so much,that you might as well buy a new car.

This is because governments should delink the batteries from the car companies,and force a common modular standard for batteries(like say an AA,etc). The batteries should be designed so that parts can be replaced in segments. Think of a device using AA cells,you can replace a singular AA sell if required.

That means multiple companies can supply batteries and the competition would drive prices down. But car companies don't want that as they won't to sell you a new car like a new iPhone.

But that is not happening with electric cars - they will become throw away devices with limited repairability.

You just have to look at Rich Rebuilds on Youtube and other similar channels - car companies do everything to stop electic cars being repaired. But what is even worse,is that most lithium is not recycled as companies say it is not profitable enough. Apparently the target is to re-use only 60% of old car cells in consumer devices,but smaller cells tend to chucked away. So it means more mining of lithium,cobalt,etc which has its own set of problems.

So the best thing is to simply USE YOUR CAR LESS,if you care about pollution. Walk more,cycle,use public transport,make less unneeded trips,etc. If you don't care about the environment then carry on as normal.

Why environmentalist need to stop thinking of technological fixes for everything

One of the biggest things to help the environment is ironically what not enough "environmentalists" are pushing for - making items easier to repair and upgrade.

All I see is a lot of so called "enviromentally friendly" technologies being throw away short lifespan item.

Pollution is a whole cycle. There is too much obsession about the "operation stage" pollution. What about the pollution from extraction of resources and the manufacturing of said items? Pollution from the disposal of such items? The number of times said items/technologies need to be replaced over a 20 year period.

For example my Dualit toaster is 31 years old and is made entirely of metal. It can probably be mostly recycled easily if it gets chucked away. After 31 years two of the heating elements are gone but I can buy replacements so I won't need to chuck it away for a while longer.Maybe the heating elements are bit less efficient than a 2023 toaster.

But then if someone just went with a bog standard throwaway toaster made mostly of plastic - maybe they would have gone through three or four of them in that period. Even if they are bit more efficient,I would argue the pollution from making four toasters and disposal of them is worse for the environment,especially as engineering plastics are hard to recycle.

Look at modern consumer electronic - despite all the champagne environmentalist spiel,lots of it can't be repaired easily because its all glued and soldered together. But it has Greenwashing marketing slogans:
1.)10.5% MORE EFFICIENT
2.)11.3% MORE RECYCLED MATERIAL
3.)23.79% MORE RENEWABLE ENERGY USED

But not:
4.)Harder to repair shortening the effective lifespan
5.)Harder to get parts for shortening the effective lifespan
6.)Make it harder for consumers and independent repair shops to repair items shortening the effective lifespan
7.)Make the product more fragile shortening the effective lifespan
8.)Use software to end the functionality of perfectly useable hardware much earlier,by making up reasons shortening the effective lifespan
9.)Removing the ability to upgrade parts shortening the effective lifespan

This means more items have to be made over each 10 year period. That means more pollution and environmental damage.

If people don't believe me - check out Louis Rossman's channel in the US.

Lots of companies virtue signalling about the environment but forcing users to upgrade. It's getting WORSE.

Just look at companies like Nvidia locking features to Ada Lovelace instead of Ampere,when it is obvious it should work(DLSS3)."