1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

News Microsoft details Windows 8 graphics acceleration features

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by brumgrunt, 24 Jul 2012.

  1. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    15 Jan 2010
    Posts:
    6,375
    Likes Received:
    743
    XP, Vista and 7 run so stable you can replace every single part in the Pc without reinstalling. Been there done that multiple times on each of them.
    Last time it caused trouble was back in the days of Via and Sis chipsets.

    There can be some issues, like for example Java trying to use installed graphics drivers that are from a gpu not currently physically in the system, but that can't be blamed on windows.
     
  2. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag New Member

    Joined:
    30 Jul 2010
    Posts:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    10
    Are you kidding me? Its fine that you enjoy the interface but you're being hypocritical at this point. In your first post, you stated that you spent the time to customize Metro. If you leave the default start menu as-is, it also sucks. In my start menu, I replaced the recent history with tools I use for games (such as level designers or mod imports), and then Documents, Computer, and Control Panel on the right-half with nothing else. Then under All Programs I have shortcuts to any miscelaneous programs - no folders other than 1 for the windows default utilities, and Startup. On my desktop I have all icons for my games. I rarely boot up into Windows and I can find anything without the need of a keyboard within a couple seconds. I can't do that with metro.


    If you only have program shortcuts in your start menu, you get the same effect except it takes less time to move your mouse over to an icon. Keep in mind number of clicks does define how fast something is. That's like saying its faster to drive 5 miles at 30MPH than it is to drive 10 miles at 65MPH. In some instances (such as shutting down the computer), Metro is like driving 10 miles at 30MPH.

    Trackpads are significantly slower to navigate across the screen with, and when you speed them up too much then they're harder to be accurate with. I assume you speed them up a bit, because otherwise trackpads are probably the absolute worst thing to use with Metro since they can (relativley) take forever to get from one side of the screen to the other. With the classic start menu, everything is pretty small and compact, so it takes no effort to move the pointer to where you need.


    No, I'm not. Look how much empty space is wasted in this:
    [​IMG]
    Hell it's not just empty space; many of those icons are just so pointlessly huge.

    I don't hate things for no reason. As I've said in my previous post, I don't prefer the GNOME interface, but I don't hate it - it's just not my preference. If Metro wants to be effective it should be more like the iOS or Android menus, which can do the same things as metro but look nicer, are more user friendly, and much much faster to use (even with a mouse). I don't even have a tablet and I know those interfaces are better.
     
    azrael- likes this.
  3. Parge

    Parge the worst Super Moderator

    Joined:
    16 Jul 2010
    Posts:
    12,927
    Likes Received:
    563
    Well said, I'm I'm really starting to get bored of bandwagon jumping Windows 8 bashers.
     
  4. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

    Joined:
    29 Nov 2006
    Posts:
    5,634
    Likes Received:
    208
    A quick question, do you have to use just the provided colors? It's just asking for custom made backgrounds to fit around the tiles.

    Well that's not so bad then. Even in the ones that don't block it I can live with seeing the desktop rather than the Start Screen.
     
  5. azrael-

    azrael- I'm special...

    Joined:
    18 May 2008
    Posts:
    3,852
    Likes Received:
    124
    One could argue that other people (myself included) are getting tired of the Windows 8/Metro apologetics. I sometimes have the feeling that no matter what Microsoft concocts there will be people praising it to high heaven.

    Metro on the desktop simply doesn't work for a lot of people. Microsoft's half-assed attempt at bolting on keyboard and mouse support certainly doesn't help. Why not simply give people the choice?

    Another thing that many people apparently forget is that the way the desktop is treated now reeks of "legacy" status. How long will it be before it disappears completely? Hey, but that's OK. The good folk at Microsoft ALWAYS know what they're doing...

    Sorry for the rant, but this is an issue that really pushes my buttons.
     
  6. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

    Joined:
    29 Nov 2006
    Posts:
    5,634
    Likes Received:
    208
    I can't help but look at the whole issue and think: Microsoft is a massive company that's been producing operating systems for awhile now. Surely if it was as bad as some people on the internet would have you believe then someone at some point in its development would have stopped and said "Hey wait, this is kind of rubbish isn't it?". It's not like Microsoft is comprised of brainwashed programmer slaves, they're all earning their paycheck on the product they produce and will want it to succeed. I feel fairly confident that once I get my hands on the final release I can get used to and enjoy it.

    Of course, it doesn't really matter that much. It's one company's offering, we'll all live no matter how it turns out. You can always buy a Mac.
     
  7. azrael-

    azrael- I'm special...

    Joined:
    18 May 2008
    Posts:
    3,852
    Likes Received:
    124
    Microsoft IS a massive company and you know how those types of company are run ...hierarchical from the top. Now, I haven't worked for Microsoft myself (other than for a subcontractor many years back), but I'm fairly certain that your average Joe Developer doesn't have much input. And there's a certain level of "a**e kissing" involved to boot. Short of Steven Sinofsky or someone even higher up stepping on the brakes noone will halt development.

    Lastly, comments like "I'm certain I can get used to it" irk me to no end. You shouldn't have to get used to it. It should come to you naturally. If it doesn't and if that is true for a lot of people it's probably not you at fault.
     
  8. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag New Member

    Joined:
    30 Jul 2010
    Posts:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    10
    I really really really wish you were right. You SHOULD be right, but unfortunately you're not. Look at xbox 360 for example - the only reason it was popular is because it could play detailed games with a reliable online network for an affordable price, but the hardware setup was an utter failure. The fact that they even coded a RROD just shows how they really don't care. Or look at Vista for example - I know there are some people out there who really don't mind it, but that was probably the most disliked product MS ever made since windows ME, which is yet another example. AFAIK, people voiced their distaste for Vista before it was released, and MS clearly didn't listen.

    The problem with MS today, and is my main gripe of the company, is the developers probably don't get much say in anything. There's someone from management telling them everything to do to a tee whether they find it agreeable or not. That being said, that removes the practical knowledge a developer may have as well as remove all motivation. With no motivation, they do sloppy work. Being a linux user for over 5 years, this becomes very apparent, but isn't so noticeable when Windows and Mac are the only OSes people are exposed to. The same thing applies to many games too. Companies like EA just tell their developers what to do from beginning to end, making games just barely good enough with just barely enough content to be sold for $60.


    Good work comes from the insiration (and motivation for that matter) of the developers, not upper management.
     
  9. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

    Joined:
    20 Jan 2007
    Posts:
    12,300
    Likes Received:
    710
    Microsoft, since Vista release ('cause you know how that went), works in small'ish team of 3 groups working on parts of the program.

    Team 1, is the Program Manager team. They are employees, software developers, who spend most of their energy on doing concepts, brain storming, deciding a product direction, new set of features, etc... They don't do much programing, but still participate in it.

    Team 2, is the Software Developers. They do the massive programming, and realizing Team 1 image, and are free to be creative and suggest and implement their own features.

    Team 3, is the Software Developers in Test. These are not testers as you think. They verify, test and correct code made by team 1 and 2, for rigidity, and security. And at the end, they play as a first layer of testers of the overall product. Microsoft has it's own testing team., once the product comes to the needed stages.

    Team 1, 2, and 3 are always intercommunicating between each other. One member can go the other team guy office and ask questions. Their is no barrier. The company also has multiple inter team meeting and meetings that regroup all teams.

    Before any protect starts, you can switch between teams. Microsoft provide courses and workshops to help one pass from one team to the other, and their is an internal interview process. You can't really say "Well it's easy, lick the guys ass for his ideas and be Program Manager", well no, because that decision is well before any brain storming is made. So you can't do that.

    No mater the team you take, you are paid the same for the same level of experience working at the company. So you pick what you like the most.

    All team members uses the software that they develop. Microsoft calls it, internally, as "Dog Feeding". So they test the software as they develop it, and they see what works and doesn't, and perform changes or cancel a feature or concept based on that.

    Each employee uses the computers that fit the project needs, and uses multiple monitor support, consisting of mostly Dell U2410 or other 24inch 16:10 previous Dell UltraSharp monitors, while they are some exception here and there. this is mostly the case.

    How do I know all this? Well I applied for an internship at Microsoft, and went up to the final interview stages. So yes, I saw newer builds, at the time, of Windows 8 running on their system, and Office 2013. Sadly, I didn't make it, they found a better match for the software they were working for. It was on Excel, I am no master on it, perhaps they found people that know it better than me. The better news is that I got invited to try again next year, unlike others I know. Oh, for internships, you don't pick where you want to work ('cause let's face it, everyone will want to work on Windows, or the XBox team.. and no one on let's on Notepad :lol:).


    1- You know how much time I spend customizing the Start Menu? A lot. Cleaning all that crap, and I have 2 folders to take care off, and countless of User Account Control dialog boxes, and mouse clicks. On Metro, you just right-click on a bunch of icons, and in one shot: Unpin! You are done cleaning, just move the icons the way you like it and your done.

    I don't see what I am being hypocritical about. And no I am not sucking up to Microsoft for a internship. I think they have better stuff to do then to read my Bit-tech.net forum comments. Plus, I am and did complain on the search that it doesn't have a "All" filter, no more DVD codec, harder to shutdown/restart the system, and dual separate Control Panel. But these are not things that blocks me from upgrading. I gain: higher performance, faster booting, longer battery life (1h) in the case of my laptop, native USB 3.0 support, new and more informative task manager (important for me for monitoring a software I work on for resources), new File History system, network improvement, auto-switch between wireless and wired or the reverse networking system, much faster wireless re-connect on wake up, improved multi-monitor support, cloud based account (for those who are interested), reduce restarts on updates, and much more.

    Also, your setup sounds like a a big clean up project. Metro is just a few click away, and voila. Plus you have everything in front of you.

    So you can do all that in Windows 8 with the Start Screen. If you used Windows 8 seriously, you would know.

    Everytime I try to go fast with the Start Menu, I tend to click on the wrong item. While on the Start Screen, having bigger icons, makes it easier to click on. So at the end of the day, it takes about the same time, as I with the Start menu, I spend about half a second making sure the mouse is on the item I want to click on. When you start Visual Studio by mistake... it's a pain, especially when it's set to load the last project at startup... oh boy you are going to wait, even with an SSD.

    Well I don't know what setting you set your touchpad, but fast moving across the screen is easy with the touchpad, but when you need pixel precision... forget about it.
    Configure your touchpad properly.



    I don't see any wasted space. Else it looks awful. Design is important. Linux is a perfect example onto why it's not welcome to new comers. With the exception of Ubuntu Gnome, which helps a lot, but no real fix, and also at the exception of some few programs, Linux is all about jammy the most on the screen, making hard to find anything. And jam pack with useless options (example, developer(s) can't make a decision, so he makes it an option), no real focus.

    NOTE: The point is not to bash o Linux. It's an awesome OS, but it was to show by example, the problem when design isn't put to any priority level beside absolute low.

    Honestly, big no. Even Android is following Windows 8/Windows Phone 7 approach,. While not having live tiles, they went with a home screen with gadget that give you the essentials info, without going in and out of programs. While having icons at first is fine, when you have a lot, it's awful. I don't know 1 single Mac OS user, that likes the iPad style dashboard for running apps. They all say how stupid it is, as it provides no info, no benefits... just icons.. that could be put on the desktop.
     
  10. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

    Joined:
    20 Jan 2007
    Posts:
    12,300
    Likes Received:
    710
    Management usually don't have the creativity or knowledge to come up with with such massive change. Managers job is to manage the team, and take important decision making that affects the company as a whole. Example, do we delay a product release for implement the ability to support multiple cursor on the screen? Is it worth the investment? And also, their job is that the ideas from the engineers comes to life and be polished and nice, to boost sales, to benefit the company.

    Believe me, I work now for a software company.. if you let us loose, we will never ship a product. As it will be never done. Their is always improvements and new feature to add. You have to draw a line somewhere. While we do this. Managers roles is to make sure we follow our initial plan, that everyone works well together (and perform adjustment if that is not the case, like switch people within the team), and do all the needed paper work.

    If that was the case.. Windows 8 will be Windows 7 with few, not very interesting features.

    Vista failure is a bit of complicated one. Microsoft as a whole, was pressured due to the problem that XP was, and making a new OS, for the most part, done form the ground up, was really time consuming... too time consuming, that they shipped too early... I mean over 3 years of delays... ouch. The delay is so long, that they have to contentiously catch up to technology. Imagine Vista looking like Longhorn back in 2003. OUCH! While people were amazed back in 2002 with leaked Longhorn pictures.. now they look pathetic.

    I mean look at this:
    [​IMG]
    So that caused more delays, and complications. I mean look at the final result.. the interfaces of each programs in Windows look different. You see a bit Longhorn in some, some more late Vista and the rest in between the two. As shown on this picture:

    [​IMG]

    Vista problem was bad execution, management, communications and possibly bad organizational skills.

    No The difference is that:
    People jump and buy without question EA games. FPS shooter are virtually identical since Call Of Duty became crazy popular. Not because EA has no imagination, but because people buy this virtually unchanged game. They don't want change. If they wanted, they would would not buy them, and EA would allow creativity.

    Windows 8 in the other hand is ground breaking. Whether it's good or bad, that is not the point. The point is how much drastic the changes are. Microsoft could have easily (and possibly be cheaper), to just make Windows 8 look like Windows 7, and forget ARM and tablet support. But no. They decided to scrap everything, and do it all over again. That takes balls, and huge amount of creativity. Ballmer, said it, waaaayyy before we know anything about Windows 8... that Windows 8 will be riskiest Windows they ever done. Well no kidding! No manager, top or low, would ever except to pull Vista sales again. Microsoft is a huge company and makes billions, yes.. but it also cost Billions to operate. Microsoft ranged the red alert with Vista.. as Microsoft saw, that if they pull another Vista.. they would be in serious trouble. Beside, didn't they already fire a bunch of people (mostly managers and administration)? We saw how they changed internally and brought Windows 7.

    The reason why Microsoft doesn't listen to people, is that it was a mess with Windows 7. People complained about the new task bar like no tomorrow. I was following this very carefully. People called it "the end of Microsoft". Now look. Everyone loves it. How, as a company, or even yourself, can base decision on that. If you follow what people want, you have 2 possible scenarios.

    1- The same product

    2- [​IMG]
     
  11. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag New Member

    Joined:
    30 Jul 2010
    Posts:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    10
    I'm surprised it'd take you so long. Even back in the day when Windows XP was my main and only OS, it still only took me maybe 5 minutes total to set up my start menu to be fast, clean, and effective. Maintain it after every program you install and there's very little to work with. Maybe Metro is slightly easier to organize, because its shown on a much larger scale and isn't collapsable if you mis-click.

    This was back before you said you even attempted to do anything with the classic start menu. Based in your original description, you said you didn't like filtering through all those folders and help files, which shows no maintenance whatsoever, or in other words, leaving it as-is with no customization.

    All things that could have effortlessly be added to Win7 if MS wasn't so greedy, but that's for another topic.

    It's a big cleanup project if you hold off cleaning it up to last minute. Delete the stuff you don't want and configure the layout before you install anything, and then tweak it after every other thing you install. I'm sure Metro in the end requires a lot of the same maintenance, just in a different (possibly easier) manner.

    Also, I explicitly don't want everything in front of me - that's one of my complaints about Metro. While you can group things together, you still need to scroll through all of it. If you add folders, well, then you're still not going any faster than the classic menu.

    I did use win8, and I found Metro to slow me down to an annoying level. Before I used it, I actually didn't hate it because that would be unfair to.

     
  12. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag New Member

    Joined:
    30 Jul 2010
    Posts:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    10
    Not true at all, linux has more features than windows, mac, BeOS, and many console OSes combined and a lot of those features, while not having a 1.0 release, are still rock solid and fully functional. Nobody is going to do a good job at programming if there isn't a motivator. For open source programs, it's usually inspiration. For company software developers, its payment.

    So you claim if devs are set loose, a product won't be released. Linux proved that wrong. Put a product under some large company's control, and you get bad execution, management, communications, and organization? Contradictory much?

    Exactly, that doesn't really disagree with my point. EA knows that customers will buy their stuff whether or not it is good, different, or has more content.

    People complaining about the new taskbar were the naysayers who hate change just because they hate change. I personally liked every single change MS ever made to Win7 - I think its the best product they ever made and I think they proved themselves well with it. That says a lot considering I hate the company. I think 7 still has room for improvement and there are still a few things that it should have had by now but everything about Win7 was an improvement. Metro isn't an improvement, its just simply different. It is undoubtedly a better interface for touch screens vs the start menu - there is no denying that. But MS can't afford to release something and THEN improve it, they need it done right the first time and Metro as of right now is not that. I'm not against the concept of Metro, I'm against the execution of it.
     
  13. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

    Joined:
    20 Jan 2007
    Posts:
    12,300
    Likes Received:
    710
    I never said that. And with all the people that I talked too at Microsoft, they were all above and beyond exited and motivated.

    Management job is to know where to cut, and team leaders to know what's too much or too little when deciding what's in and out from their research, brainstorm and all that.
     
  14. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

    Joined:
    20 Jan 2007
    Posts:
    12,300
    Likes Received:
    710
    Well that's my point, it's faster in Metro.

    Heumm... man if I was doing that, my software that I am working on for your guys, will NEVER be out. My feature list is so long I had to cut somewhere. I wanted to release it last year. Now I am trying for an August release.
    You have to stop somewhere. I think they stop at the great place with Windows 7. If Microsoft was greedy, they would not even have an OEM nor Upgrade version available.You want Windows? Cash out the full price. Windows 8 PRO Upgrade is 40$.

    Also, you can say what you say with ANY software.. and for free software, change "greedy" with "lazy".

    Fair enough. That I understand. But is it really a OS ban?

    Same here.. at first... once I got comfortable with it, that was a different story. Heck I even uninstalled Windows 8 Dev Preview.. I could not handle it. Give it a second try with Consumer Preview, and now I like it (also because of the massive improvement they did to it, and once again with the Release Preview).



    My finger skills are fine. I should not feel like I am trying to do a head-shot on a 4x4 head on my screen, when I am on my desktop, if you get what I mean.

    Oh don't get me wrong I see it.. but then how are you suppose to display information with a smaller tile? What 2 word max tile, or scrolling horizontally text? That's just silly. You need room to display text for both small and wide tiles.

    And Windows needs to be. No choice.

    Doesn't mater. Poor maintenance or not. Beside on Mac OS you only have program shortcuts.. not the rest as we have on Windows. The only reason why we have all these items, especially the "uninstall" items, is legacy stuff done in Windows 95 for people that didn't know on how to remove a software. Then it just become the norm. It's wrong, and I am really happy that some software doesn't do it, but sadly the majority of them still thinks that's what people want.
     
  15. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag New Member

    Joined:
    30 Jul 2010
    Posts:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    10
    Setting up may be faster in Metro, but actual navigation is not (except by touch screen).

    Hah fair enough, can't argue with that. However, aside from Metro and ARM compatibility, Win 8 doesn't offer that much more. Get rid of those 2 things and they could have just shoved all of 8's features into 7.

    No. I don't hate Windows 8, I hate Metro (and I'm not fond of the new explorer either - Win7 had the best explorer since it had the most compact and cleanest look). If I were to use 8 I'd just use that registry trick to turn it off. However, the only thing 8 offers that intrigues me over 7 is how it is (slightly) more light-weight - one of my only complaints about 7 is how the 64 bit version was too bloated for my liking. But again, not relevant to this conversation.

    Well, that assumes you care about such things. I personally don't. I prefer such a UI to be up and running ASAP and I want to find my programs as quick as it loads. I personally have disected a netbook, tilted the screen 90 degrees, cut a hole in the front of my computer and placed the screen there as a substitute for most things that Metro could house, except visible at all times and doesn't get in the way of me finding my programs. It runs Openbox on linux with a GUI I made myself. When I didn't have that screen, I used a VFD. Before that, I had a 2nd monitor that was a CRT.

    Agreed, which is why I feel strongly about Metro. It's a drastic change that there is currently no graphical option to disable. If MS gave you a choice of using it before Windows even starts up and let you switch between interfaces, I wouldn't care about it so much. But the fact that they are forcing it on you is what makes me vocally against it.

    Wait I'm confused, what's this thing regarding uninstalling?
     
    Last edited: 25 Jul 2012
  16. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

    Joined:
    20 Jan 2007
    Posts:
    12,300
    Likes Received:
    710
    I was talking about the mess of items a program ads on the Start menu.
     
  17. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    15 Jan 2010
    Posts:
    6,375
    Likes Received:
    743
    Software developers are supposed to use the space in those icons and not just put the name of the application in it, failure to do so can't be blamed on MS.

    Prime example would be a RSS reader, won't even need to open it to get the info you want.
     
  18. impar

    impar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24 Nov 2006
    Posts:
    3,106
    Likes Received:
    41
    Greetings!
    Yep. Its a "no compromise" thing. Microsoft way or Microsoft way.
     
  19. XXAOSICXX

    XXAOSICXX Member

    Joined:
    20 Apr 2011
    Posts:
    761
    Likes Received:
    15
    Just like Apple have done...who have taken market share away from Microsoft by doing exactly the same thing. Microsoft want to recover that market share and are taking the same approach. Most end users don't know diddly about what's actually good/bad for them and "want" whatever they're told they want by whoever has the shinest computers and funniest advertising.

    Putting the above debate aside for a moment (which has been thoroughly interesting - thank you guyyys!)....From a business perspective, Microsoft are doing the right thing with Metro and Windows 8.

    For years they've hung onto the start-menu/desktop way of working and, despite countless improvements, are constantly being told they're failing to innovate. They're forced to cling onto legacy workflows and GUis because they've been terrified of moving forward and alienating their user-base.

    Apple, on the other hand, receives near-endless praise for it's innovation and developed a user-base of people who actually welcome the change. Apple has grown. Microsoft has stayed standing still. In business terms, standing still is moving backwards. If Microsoft simply made Windows 8 in the style of Windows 7+someniceimprovements they'd be standing still for other 3 years.

    Microsoft HAD to do something radically different. They did it with Windows Phone (and it worked), they're about to do it with tablets, and - in my opinion - they're about to do it with desktops. I'm prepared to bet it'll be very successful in the long term. Not because people here approve of it, but because joe-public suddenly finds that he understands how to use it straight away.

    In 10 years' time we'll look back at Windows 7 and wonder how we ever managed - with a desktop that didn't really do anything other than show an image of your favourite game/car/woman/movie/whatever and house a few icons that did nothing other than launch an application. We'll wonder why we had to have a start menu at all. We'll probably wonder how the hell we managed all that time using a mouse for something as simple as selecting what music we wanted to listen to instead of using our fingers.

    Have a little vision people..and try to see the bigger picture. The world out there is bigger than all of us.
     
    GoodBytes likes this.
  20. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

    Joined:
    14 Apr 2004
    Posts:
    4,955
    Likes Received:
    202
    Although I agree with most of what you wrote regarding Microsoft's forward-looking approach to the overall design of Windows 8, I disagree with this statement.

    I wouldn't say that most people don't know diddly about what's good or bad for them; rather, I would argue that most people don't particularly care about kernels and network packets and pixel pipelines. i.e. Most people don't really care about the low-level details of how a computer works. Most people (me included) know very well what we want: we just want a computer that works, works well, and lets us use our programs efficiently. I really don't care how the kernel works. I don't particularly care about how all the bits and IP packets are being processed and shuffled around in the core of my machine. When I click an icon to open Photoshop, I'd like to get on with image editing in an efficient manner. When I upload my photos to Flickr, I want the network interfaces to work without much hassle. If a company can improve my user experience when I'm performing my daily computing tasks, then all the better.

    I was a bit put off based on early reviews, but the more I read the more I'm inclined to adopt Windows 8 when it is released.
     
Tags: Add Tags

Share This Page