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News Microsoft worried over Linux ULPCs

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by CardJoe, 12 May 2008.

  1. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    Quoting single CLI commands as if they either solve the problem proves nothing other than that Linux is hideously user-hostile, as if that wasn't already fairly obvious. Nothing in a "src" directory is of any use to anyone other than a grad-level software engineer, and this is one of Linux's greatest faults - it assumes that everyone is a C coder. Many of the apparent benefits of Linux - mainly the GPL stuff about source availability - are completely irrelevant to anyone who isn't a software engineer, which is practically everyone. This is a circular problem, because if you have to be a software engineer to use Linux, nobody who uses Linux sees it as an issue.

    I should probably point out here that I work mainly as a video editor, so my field is particularly poorly served in Linux and one of its greatest weak spots. General office work is now quite well served, but unless you're into running servers or writing letters, the availability of software really is quite limited. OK, you're not going to be cutting the next episode of Lost on an Eee PC regardless of OS, but this might explain why I've clobbbered up against most of the problems that are there.

    I mean Ubuntu doesn't even come with a working DVD player, and adding one to it is just pain upon pain upon pain (yes, you're going to say apt-get install mplayer, arne't you, only that doesn't actually work...)

    P
     
  2. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    If you actually took the effort to look into the "CLI commands as if they either solve the problem" I gave, you'd notice Linux is documented very well and there ARE standards... But then again, who am I to say this. I know nothing...

    Media playing/converting in Linux is a thousand times easier then on any Windows station. Codecs are (on Gentoo, one of the most 'unfriendly' distros) just a matter of adding 1 USE flag and they are implemented across an entire system. That's really unfriendly.

    Video editing software is something I haven't looked into yet, but as with games, blame the producers, not the OS for lacking support...

    And about the DVD player... Lol... SYNAPTIC ;)
     
  3. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    > SYNAPTIC

    Yes, yes, of course. Only you can't do that.

    This is a problem with a lot of preinstalled Linux environments and certainly applies to the Eee as regards certain types of h.264 playback. Commercial entities tend to be very hesitant to bundle any software which causes rights problems, and of course the CSS decrypter in any normal DVD player is an example of this. The software in the default repositories tends to be more or less what was on the machine anyway.

    So, the only way to do things like DVD playback (and anything else which requires you to break the rules in Linux) is to start adding new repositories to the package manager, and this is where life becomes horrible. The command "apt-get update" is more than capable of wrecking the whole OS, and they all tell you to do it without mentioning this. Suffice to say that it's a good thing that Eee PCs are easily reset to factory defaults.

    The simplest thing in Linux is horribly complicated. It's not necessarily a particular technical problem with any of the implementations, it's an issue of a complete lack of standardisation. I'm told that source-based distros are better in this regard, but then you're into the whole "building from source" world which really does require you to be a software engineer.

    This is just one example of several I could give but the point remains. This stuff urgently needs to be fixed, or people who just want to use computers - as opposed to people to whom computers are a hobby or a pastime - will avoid Linux like the plague, and quite rightly so.
     
  4. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg New Member

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    And you last used it when? 1998? "apt-get update" does nothing but sync you with the latest updates, it DOES not install any thing, how can i break anything. Dvd inclusion is a problem but only because you should really purchase a license, free distro's aren't going to give that away, you want that there is alway freespire it'll cost but it'll do the very simple things you seem unable to out the box. When was the last time you played dvd on XP out the box?
     
  5. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    Can't I?

    Last time I checked DVD playback and h264 playback aren't the same, but like I said, I'm not an media miracle...
    I administrate a LOT of Linux servers, and I have yet to see the first one that gets wrecked by a tree upgrade... But since you seem to be all knowing on what is going on in the Linux community, I'm going to take your word on it.

    You just made my day... And an honerable mention in my signature...

    Please, go make some founded examples. But please, none that date from WW2

    Or even better, stop making a fool of yourself and verify your 'facts' before you make a fuss...
     
  6. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    > "apt-get update" does nothing but sync you with the latest updates, it
    > DOES not install any thing, how can i break anything

    Buggered if I know but I've seen it happen at least three times on different distros.

    The problem is not so much the technology itself, it's the variety. Choice is lovely but not to the point where it causes this sort of problem. Windows installers are capable of exactly the same sort of misbehaviour, at least in theory, but it happens but very rarely because Windows is much less of a moving target.
     
  7. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    Answer me this, have you ever, ever, EVER took 5 minutes time to look how much coding effort goes into making a .deb, ebuild, ... Hell, let's widen the question, have you EVER worked on a Linux station? I even question if you recently even looked at the state of the OSS community?
     
  8. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    > have you ever, ever, EVER took 5 minutes time to look how much coding effort
    > goes into making a .deb, ebuild

    This isn't about points for effort. It simply doesn't work very well. I don't know whether it doesn't work very well because it is not possible to make it work well, or because people haven't bothered doing so, but I do know that a lot of Linux problems are caused by developers making it work for them and releasing it. Hard to complain; these people are working for free, but that's a whole other issue. If it works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't, and ******** aside it frequently doesn't.

    But look, let's not get hung up on this one issue. The problem is one of consistency and general usability and I don't think anyone's seriously contending the issue that almost-anything-other-than-linux has more of those things than linux does itself. I for one would dearly love to move to Linux; I don't think many people use Windows because they're particularly wedded to it as a piece of software, they use it because it's the least bad thing available. I certainly wouldn't mind getting away from the irksome shenanigans Microsoft so often get up to, just such as that in the article which started this thread.

    But at the end of the day my focus is on usability and reliability. I can't have a client sitting here right next to me, have something not work, and say "oh, but look at how much effort they put into that piece of software". It's just not a workable way to operate, as I'm sure you'll agree. And if I get to go home earlier (or less late) because I can get things done faster, well, sorry, I'm not going to switch over to Linux and miss the Simpsons every night because you or anyone has some political pointmaking to do.
     
  9. Coldon

    Coldon New Member

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    yeh, the state of OSS... hm... filled to the brim with unfinished, undocumented projects with the "if you want to use this product fix it yourself" attitude, at least with closed source you often tend to get what you paid for.

    Glider honestly your attitude sucks a bit, maybe get off your *nix horse for a bit, i don't understand why ever *nix user thinks they are better than everyone else. I personally prefer windows cause it helps me get my work faster: okay let me play the blow my own horn game, i develop and run computational intelligence and image segmentation simulations. so i can handle myself around programming languages.

    I dont have much *nix experience but i've seen first hand how apt-get can complete screw your system, ooh someone forget to check that this update might completely break that application, especially if you *NEED* to run alpha software. i saw how a guy took down an entire server by updating the python installation on the server. Look *nix is great for the server environment but its still light years away from being a desktop OS.
     
  10. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg New Member

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    If you don't know how to use any software it can completely screw up your system apt-get is no different. But tbh the only way i can think of (temporarily) screwing up the system using apt would be using it to uninstall the kernel.

    Then please don't start on the fud!
     
  11. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    I am not on an *nix horse... If someone gives a fair argument why Linux sucks (and I myself can give a few) I would totally agree... However saying something sucks, and keep on repeating yourself even while it has proven to be wrong gets my blood boiling (so to speak, I stopped getting excited because of trolls a long time ago). I do love Linux and the OSS for what they offer, and I will defend the things that I love...

    If you search my posts you'll see I have nothing against Windows, on the contrary, some should limit themselves to it.

    EDIT:
    Have you got facts to prove this? Millions of eeePC users disagree, even more Linux users can cope with an OS on their desktop that is lightyears away from being a desktop OS, and those are generally users that know what they are doing on the pc, not pc illiterates. People with high demands...
     
  12. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    Glider, you have two people here telling you that there is a problem with a certain part of the OS, and your response is "oh, no, there isn't." I mean... y'know... what d'you want from us? We're only reporting what we've seen. I cannot make it unhappen because you find it inconvenient.

    It is exactly this sort of problem which leads me ineluctably to the conclusion that the biggest problem Linux has is its users. There are very big problems with the general usability and user-friendliness of Linux. Going "no there aren't" is exactly the wrong reaction because it causes devs to worry about it less when they should be worrying about it more. What Linux devs tend not to do, to be honest, is the long, tedious, boring bit at the end of development where you take your pre-beta and turn it into release software. It is long and boring and they aren't getting paid so the situation is understandable, but please don't deny that it exists and the problems that it causes.

    I reiterate: I would love, I would adore, I would celebrate the fact of Linux becoming a really healthy competitor to Windows, and I hope to see it happen. The problem is that with attitudes like Glider's running the show, it is the people who would be most eager to do Linux a favour who are actually holding it back.
     
  13. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    Phil Rhodes, in all honesty, you don't seem to know a thing about the OSS community, yet you judge it. Just take a look at bugtracking systems, developers mailinglists,... OSS software isn't released without testing. And wetter the devs are paid or not doesn't matter at all (and to get the facts straight, which seems to be a hard thing to do, a lot of high level devs ARE getting payed). If you actually spend the time you invested in here tearing down the OSS community and actually looked at, for instance, bugzilla you would see... However, you criticise my attitude for not allowing you to to spit at something, when you are blatantly wrong.

    If I am the one holding back Linux for you, feel free to ignore me. But the countless PM's, mails, threads and the likes I answer every day with Linux questions (of all sorts) makes me think my attitude of defending the OSS system is more suited than yours, which seems to consist of endless repeating of unfounded things. I'm still waiting for you to how me how 'apt-get upGRADE' manages to hose a system, among others. But I do take comfort in the countless forum threads about Windows updates that forced reinstalls, driver installs that went bad, ... Seems like your Ivory tower called Windows shows cracks... Only those cracks seem to exist just in my *nix-ified point of view. I don't find someone stating flaws inconvenient, on the contrary, I'd be the first one to direct them to the bug & idea tracking system. That's what it's there for. However, there is a difference between a flawed piece of software and the misuse of a piece of software.

    Don't get me wrong, Linux is far from being complete, like every piece of software always is, but at this stage (and TBH I think I'm better placed to judge this as you are) Linux is on par with Windows as an Desktop OS. But because Linux is about choice, a new feature in the world of a Windows user, not all distros will be suited for everyone. That's like not everyone can handle a F1 car, thus not everyone should drive one. And then there always is that portion of the users that never ready to adapt to changes. Those are the people that are better off staying where they are. And, sorry to say so, you seem to be like one of those users. You say the biggest problem with Linux are the users, I agree, but not fully, the biggest problem are the MISusers. People who think they know their stuff, but are oh so wrong in the end.

    So don't come over here and start waving the 'Linux sucks' banner in my face because you didn't give it a fair chance. And also don't go blaming the developers for mistakes the end users make. When I started seriously with Linux I got frustrated too at times. But I gave it a fair chance and climbed the learinng curve. And everyone has to be honest here, Windows has a learning curve too... The best example is probably PC illiterate (grand) parents that require help printing a Word document. This points to the main problem tough, everyone knows Windows, and therefore when they decide to try Linux and something doesn't work they tend to go back to known grounds. It's a phenomenon that is shown with every change... 'It used to be better, because...'

    And I think, so sum things up and stop the trolling, we just are different persons. You seem to be a driver that's riding the 'Windows' lane. You once turned on your turning signal to cross over to the 'Linux' lane, but the roads were just too different over there and you didn't like it. So back you went with a burned feeling. I am a driver in the fast 'Linux' lane, I don't mind crossing over to the 'Windows' lane when I'm forced, but I'm always happy to return to my chosen lane at the end of the day. Because for me Linux offers a lot more then Windows ever has.
     
  14. Coldon

    Coldon New Member

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    don't get me wrong, i have nothing against *nix, and its not fud, i'm sure every linux user has seen how updating one component (especially on a source distro) can break others. We were running all our servers on gentoo (i know bad idea) and updates were a complete nightmare, we've moved over to debian and updates are proceeding smoothly, i have to say that the debian quality control is quite good.

    an eeepc isn't exactly a fully fledged workhorse and the millions of people are running linux on it cause it came with it and has nice pretty big buttons for all the basic features they need but on the flip side those machines are pretty low end and thats where linux shines!

    I'm with phil on this tho, there is this attitude of superiority in the linux and OSS communities that is uncalled for and is often self-destructive. This is reason i even bothered replying on this thread. As for software QC on linux that is a major problem within the OSS community, a large scientific organization here decided to go open source since the government here is pushing for it (blame mark shuttleworth) and they decided on using Open Office for their office suite, within a month they ran into major problems and hired a team of programmers to work on modifying open office to fix bugs and add features. I've worked with open source packages and have often reported bugs to the developers and pretty much the general response is: "fix it yourself, i don't have time or couldn't be bothered" on the smaller projects, "um.. thanks we'll get to it hopefully" on the larger ones.

    If a company is getting paid for a product, they have a lot more incentive to get their patches out faster, and they often have larger budget for professional QA, unlike the OS community which often relies on mainly the users for bug reporting. Then again OSS is completely separate to the OS the software is run on.

    Again all this is all largely off topic and there is no need to get into a mud slinging match about which os penis is bigger.

    - there again that little remark, proves our point. There is not one thing that linux does that windows can't and vice versa, not one! linux isn't any faster or any slower than windows.
     
    Last edited: 13 May 2008
  15. pems.butler@btopen

    pems.butler@btopen New Member

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    Don't all shout at me, just because I understand very little of what you are all saying.

    Phil Rhodes understands best why ordinary punters like me are not prepared to switch to Linux/Unix yet.

    Do any of you have an informed and (as far as is reasonable) a sympathetic view of any commercial providers who are packaging Unix for punters like me ?

    I would pay good money to avoid upgrading from my Windows 2000 to Vista (or a ******* XP) when the time comes - especially if the alternative came with the sort of manual that was a credit to Windows 3.11.

    R
     
  16. Coldon

    Coldon New Member

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    i'd say your best bet is kubuntu, that the closest to the windows experience you'll get on a nix platform...
     
  17. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    I run a Gentoo Desktop system. And indeed, Gentoo isn't suited for most servers, Debian however is supreme ;)

    I just think you got a grumpy dev. I personally know a lot of 'high level' developers, and I must say, bugs aren't ignored, AT ALL.

    Again I disagree, just look at K3B for instance. OSS software that just owns Nero.

    Linux uses less resources, and is faster. For instance, Linux has the fastest USB2 implementation. This is a proven fact. Things Linux can that Windows can't? How about boot to a LiveCD? Chroot services for safety? (I know you will disagree) Implement a working package manager. Correctly work with (hard) links... Run on a toaster?

    EDIT2: And fast lane was meant that Linux gets things done faster for me. I customised my (G)UI 110%, just as I like it to be. Another thing Windows isn't capable of.

    EDIT:
    Commercially? SLED or RedHat, but I don't recommend it. Any flavor of Ubuntu or Fedora will get you up and running in 15 minutes
     
    Last edited: 13 May 2008
  18. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg New Member

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    I use both os's and i can think of a half dozen with out trying.
     
  19. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    > I would pay good money to avoid upgrading from my Windows 2000 to Vista

    So would I. I would happily pay similar money for similar functionality both in terms of OS and applications. Linux people need to understand that it doesn't HAVE to be free. The issue is simple: it just does not exist. I can't go out and buy a linux distro which works as well as windows does because there isn't one.

    I have avoided going ad-hominem on Glider but his constant attitude of superiority and assumption that he knows everything about me is so typical of the stereotype that I can't help but mention it.

    Glider, let me say this in closing. You are behaving in exactly the way, saying exactly the things, and having exactly the effect that every other Linux advocate I meet has. If you studied the art for years, you could not possibly be having a more negative effect on the debate; you could not possibly be more wrong. The very statement that Linux and Windows are "on a par" on the desktop typifies the standard response perfectly and it is very, very obviously not the case. Hopelessly obviously. Everyone on this thread is a computer user and most of them know damned well that Linux is, to be kind, not a competitor in this field. You know it, I know it. And yet you are forced through some insane brand loyalty to defend the thing.

    No matter how much you believe it, it will remain untrue. And the more you believe it, ironically, the less true it will become.
     
  20. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg New Member

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    Linux devs have used windows you know. They have often chosen not to replicate the functionality of it for various reasons, its different but far from inferior the biggest problem most have is that they are power users in windows but noobs in linux and no one likes being back at the bottom of the learning curve. If you've had problems using it in the past (you clearly have) ask for help, stop using it, but don't spread bile based on your experiences of a few years ago, its an eternity in linux unlike in Windows.
     
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