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News Microsoft worried over Linux ULPCs

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by CardJoe, 12 May 2008.

  1. Coldon

    Coldon New Member

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    lets agree to disagree... as for k3b, I've been soured by that program, yes now its usable now, it took them a while tho. In a counter-point to my argument before nero started out great and nosedived with every new release...

    As for using less resources, thats always debatable, it depends on what you're running, my windows box might use, lets exaggerate a bit, 3 times the ram but if i compare performance of my application on both systems its identical, and to be honest, the ms c++ compiler is a bit better than g++, especially with the new version in 2k8 with runtime debug assertions. Yes, all the MS services running use up a lot of memory but then again the OS is aimed at the average user that might need to do any one of a million things and they need to be prepared for it. Every power user i know will tweak windows settings just like ever linux power user will spend time optimizing their system.

    The one thing that you cant argue with is the time requirement of linux, lets say i get a hard drive crash i'm back up and running in about 3 hours my colleagues take a day or 2 to get their systems back up and running, more if running gentoo (took our sysadmin over a week when his reiser3 FS died suddenly).

    As for running a toaster on windows, its possible with some effort, our toaster runs a simple web interface connected to a writer service, I see no reason it cant be run on a windows box, as for a live cd hm... barts pe is kinda like a live cd, but then again how many windows users do you know that need a live cd :p

    as for the grumpy devs, i got a couple, i remember a few years back i ran into a PHP bug that i could reproduce and they couldn't put it up on the bug message board and promptly had some guy call me an idiot and that i had no idea what i was doing, it was all PEBCAK according to them. had a similar thing with mysql GUI tools a while back too (now that is an atrocious suite of applications). anyways we've gotten grossly off topic here.

    I'd be curious to hear what they are...
     
    Last edited: 13 May 2008
  2. koola

    koola Active Member

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    My opinion of Linux is that it's a great OS, but lacks the support and software that windows commercially gains and continues to dominate with. Until this balance of power shifts, Linux will continue to be a niche OS (except for servers where it's actually gaining ground due to lower TCO).

    People looking for a more noob friendly *nix experience should try OSX as that offers a imho better experience with all the security and power Linux offers, but as a trade-off is more expensive.
     
  3. Coldon

    Coldon New Member

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    *feh double posted* delete please...
     
  4. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg New Member

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    Netboot easily and cheaply rdp is a nasty hack.
    Run the x layer on a server displaying on a local machine (see rdp comment).
    Treat a network drive as though its local (invisibly), smb still shows as a seperate drive.
    Run a thin client as a full standalone machine, an compaq evo doesn't have the ram let alone horsepower for win98.
    Run the entire os from ram with less than 128mb and no swap
    Run the whole shooting match with out having to use a GUI.
    Change the window manager with out changing the core of the system
    operate with out having the registry corrupt (very rare but its a bitch to loose an entire system because one file goes bad)

    I have more but they become quite pedantic :)
     
  5. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    Now those are wise words...

    I go even further, I fully agree again. K3B WAS a load of crap but now it's superb. Nero is the opposite...

    True again, but gcc accepts a lot more optimalisations flags (/me is a Gentoo user, don't get me started ;)) I don't know how the MS C++ compilier handles compile caching, cross compiling, multi threads or task offloading, but gcc does all of those with ease (ccache, chrooted environments, basic kernel fucntion and distcc ;))

    Resources wise I have a challenge for you, try to run a basic Windows system (like 98SE and up, networking ;)) with functionality on a system with 1MB RAM. I did that (LFS experiment, got a basic GUI booted and loaded a webbrowser at a decent speed). Another chalenge, run a Server Windows OS (like 2000) and make it a basic fileserver. Minimum requirements are way higher then on a Linux Samba server (/me looks to his left and sees a system with 18MB RAM dishing out files to the entire student house)

    This is a two bladed sword. In the case of the Gentoo system, a full reinstall takes me 2 days. Configurations are saved, just the recompilation takes a while. A Debian system tough is up and running again (fresh install, no ghost) in 20 minutes, given the configuration files are backup'd (I did it on my high schools student club main server).

    It's a matter of planning ahead (I have my configs backed up and they are physically on a different partition to, so I just need to mount it) and building up a routine. I can reinstall my Vista PC in an hour (without customisations), but I can install Debian in far less time.

    The toaster was a principle. Linux supports the most architectures of all OSs out there.
     
  6. Aterius Gmork

    Aterius Gmork smell the ashes

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    I don't know if it is a good idea posting here, but I will do it anyway. :worried:

    First: I love Linux (Ubuntu, Fedora, Xfce, Debian for server). Not that I know that much, but I love it. I love it for being free, I love it for making my old PC feel faster than my main rig for office work. And I don't want to miss it!

    But there are many things that are really annoying. If Linux runs it is awesome! But you got to set it up first. For an office machine that is no problem. But if you want to do anything different than that the nightmare begins. Installing Nvidia drivers for an instance: I seriously do not want to learn how to switch to runlevel 3 or anything.
    There was a lanparty at my house recently, but Diablo II LOD wasn't running on my friends MAC. I formated the Linux machine and put XP on it. (Yes, I know, it hurts etc.) It was a matter of putting the CD in, waiting a few minutes, typing in some information and letting it sit for another few minutes: done! Then I simply downloaded some Nvidia drivers and installed them! 45 minutes, and he could play!
    (It has Fedora running again, if that does comfort you.)


    Now I know it is Nvidia's fault for making drivers that are so hard to install. I know it is the game dev's fault for not making it run on Linux. But you know what: I don't care about the why and what. I want things to be running. And I want them to be running easily. Without reading some toturial for hours just to descover that the driver doesn't work because the card is too old. Nvidia's fault again: But again, I don't care. I did get the drivers installed, but only because tinkering with the system is fun for me.

    If my mom gets any distro installed on her machine by herself, fully functioning, with all drivers working as they are with Vista, and running mainstream programms as Paint Shop Pro or Photo Impact, then you are done. Not all mp3players, little gadgets, and whatever, but let's say a normal modern laptop with normal modern software. I'm sure my mom does not care what you have to archieve that goal, even if that means you have to bribe the software devs. Oh, you don't have enough money for that? Well, then charge more for the damn thing! Because it works, j/k.


    Again, don't get me wrong on this, I am thankful for Linux and its efforts. In fact I wouldn't want to life without it. But sometimes choice etc. has to be limited for simplicity. Because simplicity is a choice also - and one that Linux isn't always offering. Really.



    Ninja Edit: Oh yeah, that configs you have backed up are not an argument here. You have to set it up once to be able to back up a config. And then you could also mirror your WinXP harddrive I guess. (Don't know, never tried, just not worth it for a Windows machine.)
     
  7. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    On a funny note, as a former D2 LOD addict you can perfectly run D2 in Wine or Cedega ;)

    EDIT:Ah curse you, you make me wonder how AM_Sparky (Charged boltress), AM_BiteMe (PDR sorc), AM_Chainy (Chain lighning sorc), AM_Flash (4fps Novae),... from v1.09 would do nowadays... :D I even wonder if my old clan still exitst
     
    Last edited: 13 May 2008
  8. Aterius Gmork

    Aterius Gmork smell the ashes

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    I know. But I couldn't be bothered to try setting it up while my friends are there. The machine was a file server, and with my little experience I need some quitness, not 5 friends rumoring behind me.
     
  9. Shielder

    Shielder Live long & prosper!

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    Glider, Phil, Coldon etc, I think you are all missing the point entirely, Windows is definitely the best OS for some people, Linux is the best for others and some just prefer Macs. I know my way around both XP (not Vista just yet :) ) and most Linux distros and there are things that are good and bad about both systems.

    We could argue for ever and a day about which is better, for example, getting MCNP to run over multiple systems is virtually impossible with Windows, yet I had a 32 node MCNP Linux cluster running 3 years ago. Gaming, on the other hand is great on Windows (i.e. lots of good quality titles) and just good on Linux.

    The problem is not that Linux or Windows or MacOS is better, but that MS are trying to force us to choose that their OS is the best for everything when it quite plainly isn't. Windows is not the Holy Grail of OSs. Neither is Linux. Both will be the best for certain applications, and crap at others. It is all down to personal preference and what works best for the particular job that you need to get done.

    Andy
     
  10. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    > Now I know it is Nvidia's fault for making drivers that are so hard to install.

    Well it's really not; it's much more about Linux being completely free of any form of standardisation. Deploying software onto Linux is a pain in the neck unlike anything the world has ever seen. The degree of customisation that Glider refers to is the direct cause of this. No two Windows systems are exactly alike; the problem is orders of magnitude worse on Linux.
     
  11. Aterius Gmork

    Aterius Gmork smell the ashes

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    Uhmmm... I think you are wrong there. Because you need the same packages on most distros, and get the same package from Nvidia for most distros. But then I've only installed Nvidia drivers on Ubuntu.

    Nvidia could simply include all you need for most scenarios in one (or several) packages. And do we really need runlevel 3 for a simple graphic driver install? I mean, Windows can do without it. A restart is just fine.

    @Shielder: You are right there. But if Linux wants to become more mainstream it will have to change. Sometimes it is about how many people are "some".
     
  12. Shielder

    Shielder Live long & prosper!

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    Phil, ever heard of the Linux Standards Base? Nearly all distros adhere to these standards, making your point moot. Sorry.

    The problem is not Linux having no standards (it does), it is more the lack of development of the Linux drivers from different companies that is the problem. Take for example Canon printers. They are excellent printers (until they decide not to work), but Canon don't produce any Linux drivers for them, rendering my i350 a useless (large) paperweight. If I had an HP printer, I would be able to print from my Linux systems with no faffing about at all. The drivers are included in the distro (as were the drivers for my Samsung ML-2010, a USB laser printer).

    ??? I can have a central server with all of the software on that I want to use and have the clients load the software over the network, rather than have individual programs on each machine. Hell, I could even go diskless and have a single image serving thousands of computers all over the world. I can install some software on a Linux system and just copy the installation directory over to another linux system and run the software without having to worry about registry keys and rebooting the computer. How is that a pain in the neck?

    Andy
     
  13. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    I'm getting so sick of this I'm actually going to start copy pasting my first reply to it:
    And there are hundreds more... going more in detail... Can't find the gorgious ones at the moment... And know what, it's even INCLUDED in the source code...

    I hope this shuts you up now. If you keep trolling I will report your posts to the moderators.
     
  14. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    Doesn't really help me find, say, the config file that allows me to associate gmplayer with AVI files, f'rinstance, does it.

    Which is rather what I was thinking of.
     
  15. Aterius Gmork

    Aterius Gmork smell the ashes

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    Last edited: 14 May 2008
  16. Tyinsar

    Tyinsar 6 screens 1 card since Nov 17 2007

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    Certainly true in my experiences with Linux. :thumb:
     
  17. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    gmplayer has nothing to do with Linux, maybe you should get your facts straight first and memorise what Linux actually is... But that's something you already heard today I guess, that you have to get your facts straight...

    Config files which system wide go into /etc, user specific go into $HOME (figure out what it all means before you start replying; please)

    You just touched one of the most standardised and document parts of Linux, the FS structure... Now, think before you speak, this can get nasty...
     
  18. r4tch3t

    r4tch3t hmmmm....

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    I find that Linux (Ubuntu in particular) is better for computer illiterate people. I have build many computers for people and two in particular have barely used a computer in their life. They can't get things to work in windows and always end up with virii on their machines. A change to Linux makes it so much easier for them. Work so much better and they have commented to me that it seems faster.
    Its the same with anything though. There is a learning curve. Moving from XP to Vista I found some things quite irksome but now I find that Vista is much better than XP (Running on a system that can handle Vista properly)
    With Linux its a big change from the windows environment most of us are used to, but when you move to a new country do you expect everything to be the same as you old country?
     
  19. Phil Rhodes

    Phil Rhodes Hypernobber

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    > Config files which system wide go into /etc, user specific go into $HOME

    Yeah - some of the time. Maybe 20% of the time.

    That "FS structure" is in my experience one of the most frequently misused or simply disused things - it's really quite rarely used properly, with the result that the config file for program A could be... well, more or less anywhere in practice. You will of course present the excuse that certain distros put things in one place and others in another, and software that has been prepared for one will do things differently when installed on another, but that's exactly the problem I'm trying to highlight. Said config could be alongside program A, somewhere in /etc, somewhere in /home/whoever, /etc/yourprogram/ possibly somewhere in /root depending on who you were when you installed it, etc etc.

    (And don't get me started on root. What's root? Well, root is a user, root is that user's home directory, root the root of a device in /mnt (or wherever this particular version of this particular distro on this particular dary might mount other devices), and root is the top of the file system itself, in which case you have a root which contains one root directly and perhaps many others indirectly - root root rootity root, oh, and never use the system as root, you'll be able to get far too much done, just get used to prefacing every single command you ever type with "sudo". What a complete and utter train wreck of a system.)

    Needless to say these files will all be in completely different formats with no documentation as to what they expect. Registry might be a single point of failure but at least it's consistent...
     
  20. Coldon

    Coldon New Member

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    @r4tch3t - yes initially kubuntu would be great for computer illiterate people but the problem come in when something goes wrong. Getting linux help usually ends up being expensive.
     
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