1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

News PS3 hardware could be hobbled

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by WilHarris, 5 Jun 2006.

  1. noxblade

    noxblade New Member

    Joined:
    6 Jun 2006
    Posts:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    i might add, live anywhere is to allow you and YOUR friends to play together, AND not restricting people to certain machines e.g. ps3 only to play each other!

    live allows people who dont have the 360 and has the game on pc to play with there friends who has the 360. and dont forget to get the high definition of the 360 (hd ofcourse) you will need to have one of the most powerful pc out there which is capable of giving 1900x resolution with a steady fps 30-60
    which will cost a huge amount of money.

    i ask you this HOW much did your pc cost you, reading your signature its pretty dam powerful but i bet it cost you alot and time to get to that level of performance.

    and games, tbh the graphics are the + its the POWER the consoles can give is what we want, new console = new capabilities in gaming which couldnt of been done before!, take 2d graphics to 3d anyone? 9not talking about the detail of the models but the actualy ability to make 3d comapred to the old games 15+ years ago which are 2d view

    you cant flame both the ps3 or 360, they both have there strengths and imo weeknesses, i currently have the 360, and after hearing teh live anywhere you think im upset ? NO i actually cant wait to play with my friends who prefere the pc to console :), but atleast i get the advantage of better detail and better performance as the game was specifialy designed in the 360 specs, compared to the pc whichhas a huge range of hardware which we know causes problems with games

    so tbh guys leave this flame and the complaints on sony, you dont have to worry about it thats the developers job, all you gotto worry about is having fun :D

    ps 1 little flame i gotto do! Sony are forcing you to use blueray, but atleast microsoft is thinking about the gamers by saying, if you WANT high definition, we will allow you to buy the hd dvd addon, and still it will be under the price of ps3 with its BLUERAY... allowing people to choose when they want to move over to high definiiton of films, allowing xbox 360 to become cheeper while ps3 will by expensive for years
     
    Last edited: 6 Jun 2006
  2. bobthedino

    bobthedino New Member

    Joined:
    5 Jun 2006
    Posts:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    As I understand it the table is from a presentation about the RSX, and so in that context "local memory" refers to the 256MB of DDR video RAM attached to the RSX. The bandwidth figures of 22.4GBs read/write in the slide matches this block diagram of the PS3: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20060329/3dps303.jpg The other bandwidth figures on the slide also match, by the way!

    There's no bottleneck here, because the Cell will generally not need read access to the RSX's local memory. To get data to and from the graphics hardware the Cell talks directly to the RSX using their 20/15GBs interconnects.

    The SPE's are completely different to the RSX - there's no question of the RSX being considered as the 8th SPE, it's a completely different animal.
     
  3. rupbert

    rupbert New Member

    Joined:
    28 Jul 2002
    Posts:
    800
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll find the article for you, a Sony representative confirmed the E3 05 Heavenly Sword footage was a target render produced entirely using CGI.

    Don't get me wrong though, it still turned out to be the most impressive looking PS3 game (low texture MGS4 included).
     
  4. MR BUNGLE

    MR BUNGLE Shoddymodder

    Joined:
    19 May 2003
    Posts:
    287
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think this info has been mis-interpreted by the Inquirer....
    PS3 would indeed by crippled by this local memory read speed if it was using anything like a 'standard' architecture, like a PC or even the 360 does...

    However, I don't think the individual SPEs will be reading any actual data from their local stores (presumably what 'local memory' is referring to here). It's purely a command store: each SPE only has 256K of 'local memory'. Even reading at 16Mb/s will allow each one to read it's entire store 64x/sec. The 4Gb/s write speed will allow every SPE's store to be refreshed in one hit, all at once, straight from main memory.
    - Most of the SPE's workload will be SIMD streaming stuff, so the command overhead will be tiny compared to the throughput anyway...

    Notice, it's not Cache, and isn't designed to work like that; Considering that the R/W throughput to Main memory probably outclasses any current CPU's Cache throughput, and it starts to make a lot more sense!

    Also, I believe any talk of contention issues for main memory access is also inflated: The 'EIB' bus that links the SPEs and PPE to RAM, RSX etc, uses 4x ring buses(with a possible throughput of 384Gb/s), the same tech seen in ATI's 1xxx series GPUs, used to reduce latency and contention probs.
    - It looks like this bus is capable of connecting all components simultaneously, with no contention!
     
  5. MrABC

    MrABC New Member

    Joined:
    23 Mar 2002
    Posts:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mr Bungle: That does make sense...But if that's the case why are Sony telling the devs to avoid using local memory? Or it could be that Sony themselves have gotten the data wrong? (LOL!! if thats the case)

    bobthedino: The reason I say that is because I thought the RSX would be connected to the EIB bus like the SPEs are but with some huge high-bandwidth link...blah, blah...Well, it seems I am wrong =]
     
  6. MR BUNGLE

    MR BUNGLE Shoddymodder

    Joined:
    19 May 2003
    Posts:
    287
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess Sony must be reinforcing the point that you can't load data from the local memory...
    - If devs need to make calls to memory, they've gotta hit the main RAM.. If coding for other systems, you don't load anything from the CPU's cache: You can't even access it!

    I presume that with Cell, the local store *is* addressable, and would look appealing to someone trying to learn the system....Until they found how slow it is....
     
  7. bobthedino

    bobthedino New Member

    Joined:
    5 Jun 2006
    Posts:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the "local memory" in question is the RSX's 256MB of video RAM. Remember that the slide was from a presentation about the RSX. I would have thought that the SPEs can access their local 256KB at extraordinary speed... otherwise what would be the point of having them on a bus that can fly along at over 300GB/s?

    Also check out the "update" section of this story: http://www.joystiq.com/2006/06/05/rumor-ps3-hardware-slow-and-broken/
     
  8. Iago

    Iago New Member

    Joined:
    4 Oct 2005
    Posts:
    202
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm afraid I haven't explained myself properly... didn't want to turn this thread into a my PS3 is better than your X360 or such nonsense. But just to make myself clear:

    * I don't claim that the PS3 is better/worse/equal any other console. How could I? I haven't yet played it.

    * I don't claim the X360 is a bad purchase not a bad product, nor unnapealing.

    * I don't claim the Wii won't be fun nor that it will flop.

    * I haven't even yet made my mind about wich next-gen console I'm getting.

    * I do claim I'm not much interested in the Wii and I belive than all this "revolutionary gameplay" is overrated. Nobody has to agree here, just a personal view.

    What I did claim was that:

    * You don't have to be dumb nor uninformed to find the PS3 appealing. SONY isn't forcing it's kool-aid over any gamer with a passing interest in PS3, nor are only fanboys attracted to it.

    * Most of the technical data surrounding PS3 (either positive or negative) has to be taken with a grain of salt. It is being bashed left and right and there's still not a single released game for it. Just like SONY are experts in hyping their hardware and failing to deliver, there seems to be an anti-PS3 crusade going aruond, focused on spreading as much FUD possible. Due to the lack of any tangible content, this crusade seems to focus on little details that will be moot in the near future.

    * Hardware isn't going to kill or sell the PS3, games are (and price, of course) . I don't care what the developers have to invent to circumvent PS3 shortcomings (assuming there are), or what advantages do they have due to powerful hardware solutions. For all I care, they could be forced to make a blood sacrifice with each game they release. Now, I'm sure that all this will be transparent to the user, just like PS2 shortcomings are when you are playing GoW or Shadow of the Colossus.

    * Nobody involved in PS3 game development has expresed serious concerns about it's capabilities. Whatever reason there is for it, I can't belive it's just a matter of signed NDAs...and if it is, I wonder why are there so many important developers going to make mayor releases on an inferior, underpowered, hard-to-program, outrageously expensive, doomed to failure console. I guess game studios and publishers have long researched about the pros and cons of PS3 as a platform and don't appear much concerned about it's long term viability.

    Now you or any others may disagree with me or find the PS3 unnapealing or even feel it's their divine mission to bash SONY to the underground. I don't care, it's just a matter of tastes. But what I oppose each time I read it, it's being told how dumb and ignorant I am for simply considering a PS3 purchase. Being a techie or an expert in hardware doesn't give anybody an insight on every single motive a consumer has to support his purchase and people should think twice before insulting everybody with a different view on the matter.
     
    Last edited: 6 Jun 2006
  9. eddtox

    eddtox Homo Interneticus

    Joined:
    7 Jan 2006
    Posts:
    1,296
    Likes Received:
    15
    The way I see it PS3 doesnt have a selling point other than reputation. I fail to see anything innovative in both hardware and games. As for the "fake" technical data, I can think of a very simple way for Sony to quash those rumours: release the specs. After all, if the rumours are, indeed, false, then they have nothing to worry about. I, personally, will not be getting a PS3 as I don't see any of it's selling points.

    -ed out
     
  10. Asphix

    Asphix New Member

    Joined:
    21 Jun 2002
    Posts:
    193
    Likes Received:
    0
    EXACTLY. I wont pretend to be an expert on this but I'll try and explain a bit on how I understand this whole thing pans out.

    The ps3 has two types of memory. "main" memory and "local" memory. The main memory is basically the system memory, where as local memory is memory specific to the CELL and is used in order to assign instructions to the SPE's (8 of them on the CELL).

    Basically this memory would be used for developers and programmers to program the 8 SPE's to tackle different bits of information, tasks, etc etc etc. Now being as the memory will be used for operational instructions.. I cant imagine that data being overly huge. If the data being sent is in the tens, hundreds or even thousands of bytes, 16 MB/s is massive bandwith. Especially considering this "local memory" is 256k in size and theres one of these deposits per SPE. So if every SPE was using its local memory at maximum capacity thats 256x8=2048 or 2MB of data. I think 16 MB/s can handle that pretty well.

    heres a quick quote from which I dirrive my information:

    Source

    I'm sure you can find similar in Anandtech's writeup that will also lend some weight to these conclusions. Remember, I don't claim to be 100% correct, I could be mistaken on a couple things as I'm no expert and only have a general/intermediate knowledge of the workings behind CPU architectures.. but I think I have the basic gist of whats going on.

    Also, I'm surprised not more people question this horrible jump to conclusion, especially with all the talk of "sheep" and labels being thrown around in regards to mindless consumers and brand loyalties. Does everyone forget IBM, the same company behind the Power architecture (macs pre x86 switch), the X360's very own CPU as well as various other products and designs to bolster credibility was just as much behind the design and execution of the CELL as Sony? I doubt something as critical as a 16mb/s memory bandwith where more than kilobytes of total storage is concerned would ever make it past the design phase.

    Which leads me to assume that the journalist at the INQ horribly jumped the gun and assumed things without thinking, and as the post I quoted stated... it makes me cringe to see this news circulated. But, "people will believe anything, either because they want it to be true, or because they're afraid its true" - Sword of Truth :D

    Everyone wants to see Sony cut down to size.. and it will happen.. it is happening. I've no doubt developers are groaning at trying to figure out how to program for the CELL, and its obvious the competition fits the bill for "gaming consol" much more accurately than the Ps3. However, that doesnt mean the Ps3 isnt a nice piece of kit, and who knows.. it may just create its own niche market or over the course of several years open up the market and send it in a whole new direction... who knows.. only time will tell... but I personally dont think either of those are as likely as the conclusion that Sony will loose some market share and in 6 years design a product much more in line with what consumers want, and not what Sony wants.
     
    Last edited: 6 Jun 2006
  11. Lucidity

    Lucidity New Member

    Joined:
    28 Apr 2005
    Posts:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0

    When comparing franchises one should really read up on the topic.
    Resident Evil - both
    Alone in the Dark - both
    Grand Theft Auto - both

    Sure Mass Effect could end up on pc, but you will also wait 12-18 months to play it. Halo 3 will make it's way to PC as well, but with a 2 or more year wait. But why are we mentioning PC? The whole point of a console is to have cheap, but awesome gaming. If I wanted to spend 1000 bucks every six months to keep PC games looking top notch, than I would. PC gaming is almost moronic in terms of money. You pay 3x the amount for a system that will only last 1-2 years at a good clip. Keyboards will be used on consoles in the near future, both PS3 and Xbox 360 have usb ports that would support this.

    Any way. 360 also has Crackdown, Dead Rising, Enchanted Arms, Elder Scrolls 4, Huxely, Saints Row, Fable 2, Forza 2, Demonik, Ninety Nine Nights, Frame City Killer, Prey, Call of Duty 3.....AND most of these games will be out before the end of the year! Not to mention that Microsoft has been able to capture large amounts of ground in the Chinese and Japanese development communities. And with the help of XNA many PC games will be coming to the 360.

    In conclusion 1 game will be able to mute the PS3 hype one month before launch. GEARS OF WAR. When all gamers can see what the 360 and only one of its 3 3.2GHZ 64bit chips can do....well who needs to spend the extra 200 bucks on a ps3?
     
  12. Lucidity

    Lucidity New Member

    Joined:
    28 Apr 2005
    Posts:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Man do your freaking research! Sony already fired one of their own, after he spoke out against the PS3, how difficult it was to program for, and how most companies faked the e3 05 demos. Not to mention he talked about how many in the development community are talking about how 360 is overall a better console to develop for. Search for the article, it is on this site somewhere.
     
  13. Iago

    Iago New Member

    Joined:
    4 Oct 2005
    Posts:
    202
    Likes Received:
    0
    Anybody who wants to play FF or Metal Gear Solid, for instance. And it's not 200 bucks more, it's 100 bucks more. For +100€ you get a likely specced console AND a High Definition Player, wich by itself, is going to cost much more than 100€. For 200€ more, you get the above, plus a Wi Fi adapter (wich for the X360 costs about 70€), a card reader, a HDMI conection and 3x as many storage.

    I insist...you may not be interested in the PS3 but it makes much sense for many (some, few...i don't care). That's all I'm saying...that you don't need to be a mindless SONY fanboy to find it appealing.

    Ok...this is becoming ridiculous. First, it's one thing to say that the PS3 is difficult to program for (BIG NEWS!!! every frikin developer and his mother has allready said that, like, 100000 times already) and another, very different, to say that it's crippled hardware. I'm aware that english isn't my mother language, but c'mon...

    what I'm tired to say and Asphix said much better is that the PS3, hardware wise will be fine enough for 99% of the consumers out there. The PS2 was much more difficult to program for than the original XBox. It even was a less potent system (something still in the air for next-gen consoles). And that had nada, 0, nil, zilch, nothing to do with sales and/or being 1st or 2nd one. It was the games catalogue, marketing, price and brand image that propelled PS2 to a bazillion units sold.

    I have no friking clue if the PS3 will do fine or flop (I'm leaning more towards "flop" given recent SONY claims that "they aren't after market share" http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060605-6986.html), but I'm pretty sure that if it flops, it will have nothing to do with "memory read speeds", despite how many techies find it a killer blow to SONY's image.
     
  14. rupbert

    rupbert New Member

    Joined:
    28 Jul 2002
    Posts:
    800
    Likes Received:
    0
    @Iago

    I commend your stance on this subject, but on a site like bit-tech and specifically a thread with such a subject, did you expect anything less than a 'techies' point of view?

    I don't think anyone has stated that the PS3 has inferior hardware, merely the fundamental design of the architecture has made it difficult to develop for, indeed as was the same story as the PS2. The opposite can be said of the Xbox 360.

    The real problem I have with the PS3 is that it is not selling itself as a games console.

    I believe the inclusion of a Blu-Ray drive is a display of Sony's arrogance. They are in effect using their loyal consumer base to inflate the success of a proprietary format.
     
  15. yahooadam

    yahooadam <span style="color:#f00;font-weight:bold">Ultra cs

    Joined:
    21 Mar 2006
    Posts:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    i can understand the "local memory" being the "video memory" beacause the video proccesor communicates with the "local memory" at the same speed the bus to the "video memory" thats connected to it
    For this reason i am of the opinion that "local memory" is actually "video memory"
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  16. Iago

    Iago New Member

    Joined:
    4 Oct 2005
    Posts:
    202
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, that's perfectly fine. What gets on my nerves are comments like those:
    I can't stand that kind of arrogance. Being a techie or hardware "aficionado" doesn't turn anybody into the all-knowing god of the console market. It's fine to discuss about obscure technical data (hell, that's why many of us come here to begin with), but you have to keep the perspective here. This kind of data is, frankly, a very minor part on the big scheme of the console market...there are loads of perfectly valid reasons somebody may be interested in some specific hardware that have nothing to do with being ignorant, dumb or a sheep.

    And I more or less agree. I'd much rather have a DVD based PS3 for 350€ than the BD PS3 for 500€. But still, if you are in the market for a HD player and a console, the PS3 makes much more sense than a stand alone player at nearly twice the cost. Or perhaps it doesn't, but still, I'll do my reasearch, consider the pros and cons of each offer and buy accordingly to my needs...I don't need to read every single day how stupid I am for considering a PS3 purchase.
     
  17. rupbert

    rupbert New Member

    Joined:
    28 Jul 2002
    Posts:
    800
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agree.
     
  18. eddtox

    eddtox Homo Interneticus

    Joined:
    7 Jan 2006
    Posts:
    1,296
    Likes Received:
    15
    Stop me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 360 have HD-DVD? Isn't a top-of-the-range 360 cheaper than a top-of-the-range PS3? Isn't the basic 360 cheaper than the basic PS3? Doesn't the 360 have more interesting titles in development? And finally doesn't the 360 give you more POWER to CHOOSE what you want in your console? As for PC gaming, it's not quite as expensive as it's seems. Sure, if you want to have top of the range hardware at all times, then you better be sh*****g money, but, I've had my rig for about 5 years now (and it wasn't the best when I bought it) it's probably cost me about £400 on upgrades in that time (including non-essentials like TV Tuner etc...) and I can still play NFS MW without much trouble. Sure, it's not at the highest resolution blah, blah, blah, but I can still enjoy the game. $0.02

    -ed out
     
  19. Iago

    Iago New Member

    Joined:
    4 Oct 2005
    Posts:
    202
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nope. Both versions ship with standard DVD. It'll have a HD-DVD attachemnt, but with it, it's likely that the cost will equal that of the PS3. It won't have HDMI neither and the drive won't be integrated, but be an external add-on (wich may be a disadvantage if you care about the asthetics of you home entertaiment systems).

    Yes, but they aren't so easily comparable. The Premium X360 is comparable to the Basic PS3. Both have 20gb hard drive and wireless pads. The PS3 is 100€ more expensive, but has a BD drive instead of a DVD drive. Even if you don't care about HD-Movies, the extra space of BDs (25g-50g) over DVDs(4.7gb-9gb) may make the drive worth for many people. If you want a HD drive...then it's a great deal. You are paying 100€ when a stand alone player will be in the 800€ or 900€ (I know...the PS3 player will be trash compared to a stand alone, but at 1/8th of the cost, I doubt I'm going to notice any big difference)

    The Premium PS3 is 200€ more expensive, yes. But it has 3x the storage of the X360, integrated wi-fi and HDMI outputs.

    All in all, comparing both packages, the PS3 versions are expensive, but the Premium X360 is expensive too (the Core X360 looks absolutely worthless withou a hd). Only that with all this talk about PS3 outrageous price, it looks like X360 is cheap.

    That's debatable. It's a matter of tastes...I, for example, care little about Halo or Mario, but spend hours and hours with Pro Evolution Soccer, and Prince of Persia games (not that I say they are PS3 exclusives, wich are not). I'm leaning towards PS3 because the game that catched my attention on E3 was Assassin's Creed (so far, PS3 exclusive), but there are loads of games that I want to play on X360 too.

    There'll never be a right/wrong answer to that question.

    Sure...for the most part (I don't consider the Core X360 a worthy choice, although that's me). So what? You mean all this PS3 bashing (and I'm not picking on you specifically, but on the net) it's just because they don't give enough choices to the consumer? C'mon...you allways have the absolute and definitive choice...wich is, not buying it or buying the competence offer. I don't see the need to make a crusade of it.

    And even if you want to have top of the line (or close), is doable without loads or money. Upgrade often, sell your second hand pices on eBay, and wait for special deals and price drops. With patience and knowledge, anybody can have a respectable gaming PC for not much more than what a X360 costs. Console gaming is cheaper on the long run, sure...but PC do more things...I don't think it's an apples to apples comparation.
     
  20. yahooadam

    yahooadam <span style="color:#f00;font-weight:bold">Ultra cs

    Joined:
    21 Mar 2006
    Posts:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    wow finally the penny drops, im sorry to insult alot of people - but saying "oo a PC is so much more expensive then a console" is stupid, i mean, who here just uses their PC for games (well obviously none or they wouldnt be posting anything on this forum - or reading any news)
    Come on guys, i bet you use your PC all the time, for all manner of things, and not just gaming, the console on the other hand only ever does gaming, thats it, sure you may pay 1/2 the price, but you get like 1/10th the functionality
     
Tags: Add Tags

Share This Page