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UK General Election 2017

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Risky, 8 Jun 2017.

  1. Disequilibria

    Disequilibria Member

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    His voting record hasn't shown anything beyond the gay marriage thing. You do remember he is a conservative, your version of compassion isn't universal, you don't have a monopoly on that though many left leaners pretend they do.
     
  2. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Oh, I see, I'm just measuring him against the wrong kind of compassion. :p Silly me. Apparently there is a Conservative version and a left-leaning version.*

    BS. This has nothing to do with being Conservative or not. Compassion has no political dimension. Compassion is simply: "empathy and concern for the misfortune and suffering of others and a motivation to alleviate it". Else, what is your definition?

    * Dude, did you just invent alternative compassion?
     
    Last edited: 22 Jul 2017
  3. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    No compassion required to approve of LGBT rights.
    Attempting to regulate what happens between consenting adults violates the principle of separating church and state.
     
  4. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Yeah, funny how those who advocate minimal government interference in business affairs often advocate maximum government interference in people's private affairs. :D
     
  5. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    And then the opposition turns up and reverses what gets minimal and what gets maximum government interference, leaving those who don't want the government to stick their noses where it doesn't belong with no one to vote for.
     
  6. Disequilibria

    Disequilibria Member

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    And what if you have a different idea of how that is alleviated in terms of policy mix, I said you don't have a monopoly on compassion or more accurately what is a compassionate policy or not. You can't point and say this is empirically a compassionate policy and what you are forgetting is that every political ideology usually results from differences in achieving such outcomes.
    I quite frankly don't think it is compassionate to create intergenerational poverty traps with welfare policy. I don't think it's compassionate to cause broken families with the unintended consequences of such a system of incentives that is created.
    I'd contest there are different versions of what people THINK is a compassionate response to misfortune and suffering based on what they THINK about policy outcomes.

    Also people don't want, and definitely don't need, pure short termist compassion and many people's application of compassion leads to evil consequences or more misery.
     
  7. Disequilibria

    Disequilibria Member

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    I don't. Most don't. You just notice those who do.
    There is no majority for repealing and would be a waste of polical capital even if the tories had 650 seats.
     
  8. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    I respectfully disagree, his voting record shows much more than just being against gay marriage, make of it what you will as I'm not passing judgment either way.
     
  9. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    You are arguing general principles, but so far you have not shown how Rees-Mogg is compassionate.

    Voting against gay marriage? I'd argue that is not compassionate, regardless of his personal beliefs. Voting against a legal framework for the military covenant, and other measures to ensure health and wellbeing of (ex-)servicemen? Not compassionate. Voting not to make an exception for those with a cancer diagnosis or undergoing cancer treatment from the 365 day limit on receiving contribution based Employment and Support Allowance? Not compassionate. But you can rationalise that one away, if you want.

    What makes you think I'm talking about you?
     
  10. Disequilibria

    Disequilibria Member

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    (If you believe for whatever whacked up reason that marriage is a sacrament and not a right, the that issue becomes more fuzzy in regards to compassion because it is in the eye of the beholder, in that view then marriage ends up becoming onto-logically impossible from in regards to the believer of church doctrine. I don't like it, he could have abstained, but people elected him with an understanding of his moral beliefs, davis voted the same and no gay rights repeal would have a majority in parliament even with 650 tories. I'd be more worried if he had something to say about blasphemy laws, making consensual sex acts illegal. One act of lack of compassion doesn't say someone isn't over all either.
    BTW i live in the same house as a gay person who never wanted gay marriage to be a thing (on a gay liberation is instead being assimilated into the boring system he never wanted to be a part of. Along with expectations being added to relationships. Basically "I've seen you breeders do it... nah not for me."). I just accept people have different ideas on morality and what certain positive rights may be and it's better to just convince, and we're now at a point where it here, get used to it.)


    In ex servicemen or ESA, he could vote against his government whip for every opposition unicorn, that isn't good government or compassion, it would be just virtue signalling. When budgeting has been decided against competing interests adding stuff subtracts other possible stuff it's not compassionate to throw all that into disarray just because you want to look good.
    Because achieving a compassionate outcome is subjective. because contribution based ESA only is useful when you have savings and assets outside of your home value above a certain threshold, then Non contributory rates are paid, contributory ESA isn't higher it just neglects partner income and household savings. Also blanket granting of ESA to cancer diagnoses could just be silly and comes at the cost of a better allocation of disability and sickness by severity of an illness, which is not compassionate. It smacks me of the type of special place we grant cancer emotively over what are sometimes more serious illnesses than some less advanced cancers with good prognoses.
    I am saying you are implying a correlation between small government interests and personal liberty issues, i'm saying its just the ones you notice.

    And compassion has to have limits. And is never universal, otherwise we wouldn't care about family first, then friends, the community etc (on average), dangerous when taken to extremes. In soviet russia compassion kills you.


    Nearly every other is with the whip. If he is unsuitable to lead his party because of his voting record on other issues then everyone in the party is.
     
  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Sorry, you're just rationalising. You're sooo rationalising. Look at all that rationalisation going on over there.

    Compassion does have its limits; it comes at a cost after all (occasionally, death). It's about being honest and congruent where you draw the line of that cost: how much your values are worth, basically. Make mindful and honest choices, and let the voters do the same.
     
    Last edited: 23 Jul 2017
  12. Disequilibria

    Disequilibria Member

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    You're projecting, you're sooo projecting :p Remember I'm more one of him on welfare policy (and I have previously been a more welfare advocate), psst it's not because I don't care about people.

    Are we even being serious anymore (I know what's coming next.....)
     
  13. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    I don't know, since when has politics in this country turned into a joke? :worried:

    > Badum-tish! <
     
    Last edited: 23 Jul 2017

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