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News Unpaid students building PS4s at Foxconn

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Meanmotion, 11 Oct 2013.

  1. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    It certainly is no fortune. But it is essentially free money. It is a subsidy, not an entitlement.

    I'm basically a socialist by conviction, somewhat capitalist by experience. Your cartoon suggests that there once was a time where street sweepers were paid a decent wage for an honest day's work. That may have been true for a while, when their jobs were essentially heavily subsidised by the council. But the reality is: menial, unskilled labour has always been piss-poorly paid. The living standards that your grandparents (and possibly even parents) accepted as normal, are considered unacceptable hardship today.

    All those piss-poorly paid menial unskilled jobs have now either been farmed out to the Third World, or immigrants from those countries are coming here to do them, because we won't. And then we complain loudly about them taking our jobs. No, they're doing our jobs; there's a difference.

    Do I think that all jobs should pay a decent, living wage? Of course I do. But that is not how capitalism works. That game console, that iPad would become pretty unaffordable if Foxconn paid its workers a living wage. And you'd find that products and services all over the place would get more expensive. I'm happy to pay if it means that people are making a decent living. Are you?

    Moreover a population that is well-paid wants to live in a better house, in a nicer neighborhood, consume better goods. As such demand increases, so does the price. The reason that the cost of living is so damn expensive these days, is because we demand a better standard of living. My dad didn't buy his first car (the Dutch equivalent of a Morris Minor that looked basically like a better built Trabant) until he was in his forties. Nowadays people expect to buy a pocket rocket at twenty.

    TL;DR: we live in a capitalist economy. It doesn't subsidise people's lives. If you want better unemployment benefits or guaranteed jobs, you want communism. I'm good with that; I work for the NHS, that bulwark of socialism. But wave your gadgets and lifestyle goodbye.
     
    Last edited: 12 Oct 2013
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  2. greigaitken

    greigaitken Member

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    young un's are generally crap - they should have to prove themselves, just like men have to prove to women they not a **** cause there's quite a lot of those too.
    I make my under 25's work for free for 4 weeks (and yeah they have to do the crap jobs) to prove themselves. most get filtered out during that and the ones who pass get good jobs.
     
  3. fdbh96

    fdbh96 New Member

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    No wonder you get the crap ones. With those working conditions I would certainly go elsewhere.
     
  4. AiA

    AiA Member

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    exploitation simple

    there government should step in to prevent things like this

    and as they haven't all ready, it shows you were corruption lies


    they should be paid, and not work for promises


    increasing the price of some products by a few £ won't make a difference to most consumers
     
  5. rayson

    rayson Damn sure it was legal

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    these are engineering students how is this in any manner related to their work
     
  6. rayson

    rayson Damn sure it was legal

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    to be honest i'd rather not be able to afford an ipad then have someone work like a slave. and i see what you mean. but i feel that this is just probably some sort of bribery to the authority in the educational establishment that these students are from
     
  7. Dave Lister

    Dave Lister Member

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    There are well planned out alternatives to all the 'ism's' that have been tried in the past, I won't mention any here because from what i've seen of comments before its a bit taboo around here, but there are alternatives which should be given a chance. If not to enrich our own lives then perhaps to enrich the lives of others indirectly.
     
  8. Waynio

    Waynio Relaxing

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    This is exactly what I was thinking.
     
  9. PaulC2K

    PaulC2K PC Master Race

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    The difference between a manufacturer using a £0.10 part and a £1.00 part doesnt cost the consumer £0.90 more, but more like £5, so the suggestion that paying the wages for the man hours it takes to build each unit, at even £1/hr isnt going to be 'a few £'. It doesnt make what they're doing even remotely right, but 'a few £' is either a gross misunderstanding of how much it'd increase costs, or is an insignificant drop in the ocean in terms of paying them for their work.

    The majority of people would like to believe they're morally strong about stuff like this, but the vast majority of us couldnt give much of a hoot really, or at least nothing meaningful. We'll eagerly boycott stuff we never really wanted anyway, out of moral principle, while favouring the alternatives which follow the same practices they just dont happen to have people making as much noise about their activities as others do.

    Heres the real test for customers:
    If Sony, Apple, Nike, or any of the thousands of companies like these, sold an identical product, in this case a PS4, one for £375 (iirc) or one for £450 with the full £75 difference going to supplement proper wages to the people making them, which do you think is going to be the most popular with shoppers?
    The majority of people favour their own interests and the 'they're gaining useful experience' and 'they dont have to do it' lines to rationalise it. It'd be nice if it wasnt true, but it is.

    Increasing the price of some products by a few £ wont make a difference to the people being exploited.
     
  10. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Well-Known Member

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    (also if you haven't watched them Sandel hosts a crash course in political philosophy at www.justiceharvard.org - 12 hours long, but more worthy of your time than a single season of Game of Walking Bad)
     
    Last edited: 14 Oct 2013
  11. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    At least it is enough for housing and essentials, do some math on how hard life is for a single adult no kids earning minimum wage and not claiming any money from the government, just the rent alone will eat up in excess of 50% of your gross salary and you'll still only have a 1 bedroom apartment in bad condition for it, then add in utility bills and so on, lets face it, if you don't have the qualifications necessary to land a job that pays at least 20k a year you might as well just claim benefits as you will be better off, even if the government makes you work for the benefits.
     
  12. Deders

    Deders Well-Known Member

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    Math done:

    £1183 Council tax benefit for Band D. The £12 per month that anyone on benefits now has to pay has been deducted.
    £3360 Rent based on the max £280 per month
    £3640 based on £70 per week for a single person

    =£8183 per year

    Add 33% for tax and NI and you get..... £10,910.67. Maybe with that 20K they might be able to heat their house in the winter!
     
  13. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I think that you misunderstand the notion of "benefits". They are meant to tide you over and allow you to survive, that's all. And when on benefits you don't pay tax and NI.
     
  14. Deders

    Deders Well-Known Member

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    I was adding in the NI and tax you would have to pay if you were on a wage to have the same level of income.

    Realistically there aren't going to be enough jobs out there for everyone to be employed, and taking people off DLA and putting them on JSA when they clearly can't work isn't helping matters but I do believe when there are jobs available, people should be paid a living wage to do them.

    I think we'd need a separate thread if this conversation was going to go on much further.
     
  15. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    It not a matter of if there are enough jobs for everyone, for any economy to work you need a certain percentage of people to be unemployed. Otherwise you get massive inflation due to wages going up.
     
  16. Ending Credits

    Ending Credits Bunned

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    BREAKING NEWS: STUDENTS DO WORK WITHOUT BEING PAID!
     
  17. erratum1

    erratum1 New Member

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    Benefits stop you from starving that's all..where does this idea that people on benefits are living it up?

    The gouvernment and media so they can make cuts and your just agree like a load of sheep...."hate the unemployed"...."umm, ok" !! Baa baa.

    Cameron has never been hard up this posh rich boy doesn't speak for us.
     
  18. javaman

    javaman May irritate Eyes

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    I think your confusing DLA with ESA. You can claim DLA and still work.

    It is this point I want to address. I work for the Appeal service so I see a lot of people come trying to get their benefits back. ESA, DLA the main two and eventually PIP if the government move themselves but that's another rant. I've seen shocking decisions from the departments like people getting more than they deserve and others falling through the cracks. Normally the appeal solves the problem (if the evidence is there) other times our hands are tied. Then there is that middle ground. People who have disabilities but can still clearly do work. Some of them take the path, I'm in pain therefore I can't work or I'm entitled. ESA is suppose to be a test to see if your disability is enough to stop you doing tasks (note, not coplete a certain job) like mobilising (key word in the test) a certain distance etc. Many people are in pain which often leads to depression, others are stuck at home and get depressed which can lead to pain. Nearly all claim they can't work yet they don't satisfy the test. Many of them could work if the break they cycle. Others will never break it simply because they don't want to. There are many people involved with appeals that are examples simply due to motivation or even the chance presented. One particular panel member for example has sever scoliosis and one of the Representatives nearly died of a stroke, yet by his own admission, was too stubborn to lie in a bed and just die. He made a brilliant recovery and is back helping people get their benefits back. Many of the appellants are offered help but don't commit to it often its that point they loose everything.
    Really the point is it's not black and white. Many people can work, they are still entitled to benefits. The problem is simply convincing or motivating them to work. Mistakes are made in the mess of the law and peoples agendas, many do eventually get corrected at appeal. Now im not say 100% of errors are corrected. Some do fall through the cracks like the mental health side of the test or others just not engaging with the treatment offered (alcoholism is a tough area to deal with at appeal). Some even loose out on not proving their case or over playing their disability leading to credibility issues. So I ask, should we pay out for every sob story and people who refuse to help themselves?
     
  19. AlienwareAndy

    AlienwareAndy New Member

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    My brother did YTS for god knows how long and was paid £30 a week to be a builder. Filling skips, digging footings, you name it. I was too young for that (missed YTS by a couple of years) so I ended up doing New Deal. IE working 9 hours a day, 6 days a week in a computer shop for nothing more than my JSA.

    Thankfully I was taken on, albeit really cheaply (£200 a week).

    Every one has to start somewhere....

    Now? hah ! I wish I could go to work. Fact is I don't know whether I'm coming or going most of the time so my doctors just keep loading me up with Pregabalin and Seroquel. It works OK, but I sleep like I'm comatose for 15 hours a day and just want to go to sleep for the rest.

    I could probably hold a job down as an Aspie tbh. The computer shop was ace because I had a section of shop to myself. My boss would just hand computers through the hatch and I would do what I had to do and then pass them back. We pretty much figured out within a month to just stay out of each other's way as we used to rip lumps out of each other in really bad arguments. But I made him money so it worked.

    Once the Bipolar took hold? tbh and I really hate saying this there are times where I wish I wasn't here. And they're many, often. Even with all of the pills and potions I take (and there are bloody loads) I am still completely mentally unstable. I have my good days but they're usually always few and far between and never outweigh the bad days.

    I had to fight with ATOS for nearly a year. No doubt I'll hear from them soon and will have to be on suicide watch for a couple of months until they back off again.

    I wish I could work, I really do. But for me the work is just trying to stay afloat mentally and not give in. Without benefits I would starve to death. I have trouble washing and dressing myself for weeks on end.
     
  20. javaman

    javaman May irritate Eyes

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    ATOS really skip the mental health descriptors in the test. Many cases it seems they haven't even looked at that area. Even if you don't score the points it sounds like Section 29(b) might apply too. Unfortunately ATOS won't pass you on that but the decision maker might. When it comes to reassessment submit everything you have that shows how your mental state debilitates you. That plus the dosage of medication should build a picture. Another area that muddies the waters is the interruption of "most of the time".
     
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