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News Valve Steam, Source clients heading to Linux

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by brumgrunt, 26 Apr 2012.

  1. jrs77

    jrs77 Well-Known Member

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    For the font on linux... Use Arial or any other bitmap-compatible font and select "monochrome" for rendering. Your text will be as crisp as possible.

    For hardware-issues... I'm using Ubuntu 10.10 LTS on my Thinkpad x121e (i3-2357M with UMTS). It works like a charm and even manages the integrated UMTS-slot. Trackpad and Thumbstick work out of the box aswell.
    Yes it might have some issues with more specialized hardware, but even Windows and OSX might have some issues with some specialized hardware.

    For OpenGL vs DX... Microsoft is funding DX with tons of money, supporting the developers with tools and documentation. OpenGL is opensource and doesn't have these ressources available. Still OpenGL is basically as good as DX when we talk about the graphic results. The only thing currently missing in OpenGL 4 is tesselation when we talk about graphics.
    Sure DX offers input, sound and stuff like that, but that can aswell be done without DX.
    So yeah, coding in OpenGL and for Linux might be more difficult, but atleast you're not restricted by Microsoft.

    Win8 will be a real test for Microsoft when it comes to gaming, as Microsoft requires all software to certify.
    Blizzard and Valve have allready stated that they refuse to support Windows, aswell as Notch (the Minecraft-reator).

    Win8 certification is required for the Win8-marketplace, and gamestudios need to pay money to Microsoft to get there, just like Apples iTunes. So Microsoft is trying to lock down their OS basically.

    So we'll see how many devs might consider OpenGL in the future to get around Microsoft and DX.
     
  2. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    Won't that make me lose the font smoothness, and then the font will look like Windows 9x?
    If not, then why it's not default? Why set as default, a primitive font rendering engine?

    No it does not. If the software is not certified, then if SmartFilter is enabled it will marked the program as unsafe, and the user will get a warning. The SmartFilter is based on popularity. If a program is popular it won't prompt for anything. SmartFilter can be disabled, And you are asked if you want to enable/disable it as you login for the first time in the account.

    None said that. Only Notch. Blizzard and Valve said that they finds Windows 8 not good.

    If you want to make a Metro app, then yes. The fees are less than Apple.

    That won't change anything on Windows side.
     
  3. GuilleAcoustic

    GuilleAcoustic Ook ? Ook !

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    As a professionnal 3D engine developper, I can tell you that OpenGL is not more difficult than D3D. I purposely used the old name D3D as DX is the whole package, including input, sound, network, etc.

    This is exactly why devs do not want to use OGL. Dx offers everything in a single package. But you have portable alternative like OPENAL for sound, etc.

    The point about book, code sample is purely not acceptable. I never had hard time finding book or white paper or tricks about OPENGL. And to be honest, the best books about 3D are the ones that makes total abstraction of the coding languagr and hardware.

    Then I arrive at my final point : dev are too lazy ! If you do not want to learn and find things by yourself, then don't be a dev as a living. Programming is all about learning and studying for you entire "life". And this is the most interesting part of coding, finding solutions, not just using pre-made piece of code.

    I do not see the link between ogl and the font rendering. It sounds more like linux vs windows. The strength of linux is that you can change it if you don't like it. With windows, you're stuck with what microsoft gives to you.

    Software install / unsintall .... have you used a linux distro recently ? even 3 years Ubundu had an easier tools than windows.

    On some points win is better than linux, and on others it's the opposite. They are just different. It's the sale for ogl vs dx, dev should just take they fingers off their ar$$.
     
  4. lp rob1

    lp rob1 New Member

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    Package Managers

    I want to focus on your statement 'Under Linux, in order to get something as easy to install, you need to use some package manager, hope the software is inside, and install it form there.'. What that should have read, is that under most common Linux distros, in order to get something to install easily, you go to the package manager and install it. Nothing more, nothing less. All common, and some exotic pieces of software for Linux are packaged into nice easily installable packages in the package manager. Select the ones you want and click 'Go'.

    With Windows you need to do every step manually, for each individual program. Bulk installers such as Ninite have managed to get the situation a little closer to the unified package manager system, but it supports few packages in total and is missing quite a few important ones. The reason that Windows cannot have a package manager system is that developers of software hold all the rights to the software, including the right to distribute it. Therefore a manager whereby you select the packages and it downloads and installs them in the package manager will not work.
    The way Ninite and other installers do it is by interfacing with the installers from the developer, sometimes with tweaked installers made just for this purpose, that automates the process. The installer is downloaded from the developer's website, and no rights are broken. But again, the problem is that installers need to be specially designed to work with bulk installers like this, and many developers do not want to create them. And so we go back to the problem of no package manager.

    As for the whole idea that the package managers in common Linux distros are not regulated - they effectively are. By default in Ubuntu, the only sources available are the official sources which are strictly regulated for maximum stability on every software package. Should a user want either more exotic software not available in the default channels, or a bleeding edge version of some software, they are free to add a PPA (in the case of Ubuntu) that will add or replace the software packages available in the package manager. This integrates perfectly with the package manager and the install process becomes as seamless as with the default channels.
    Actually, this whole package manager discussion actually answers your other gripe - that developers do not release binaries for Linux. This is true to a degree, for the reason that each Linux system is different in the placings of libraries, as well as versions. This is why package managers were developed in the first place - all dependencies are sorted out automatically when you install a package, and all libraries are in default paths that are the same for every system using that particular distro. On Windows, the system is that a software package installer needs to decide whether the dependencies are met on that system - if not, it needs to download and install the required libraries at the same time. Unfortunately, this system doesn't update the libraries when a newer version is available, and often will only work with older versions of that library. This is why most Windows systems have Visual C++ 2005 Redistributable, 2008, x64 versions etc. With Linux it is all kept in one central place (the package manager) that makes sure each packages dependencies are met, and that all libraries are of the correct version.

    Fonts

    Although the Windows style font is a more traditional looking font that is proven to be legible and efficient, I actually prefer the look of the first font. And yes, in some senses it is more difficult to read than the traditional font, but rmebemer taht the hmuan mnid rades wrdos as a wlhoe, rtaehr tahn as idviunidal lrteetrs, and that is why you could read that without really thinking all that much. But I digress, fonts are a personal choice, and while Linux makes it easy to change system fonts and the rendering engine if one so wishes to, Windows makes it painfully difficult to do so (go to Control Panel -> Appearance and Personalization -> Personalization -> Window Color -> Advanced appearance settings... -> choose the item you want -> change the font. Note that you have to do the last bit for every item that uses a font - there is no 'change the default font' setting).

    Windows UI Decisions (bad ones)

    So to be able to right click and open a CMD here, I need to go into the registry? Even for a seasoned geek like me, the registry is still a scary and unforgiving place. I wouldn't poke a registry with a metaphorical stick, if a digital one existed.

    The Snipping Tool on the other hand strikes me as useful, just hidden away by needing to go into the start menu to access it, or having to change the keyboard layout to configure it to open on Print Screen.

    Other things

    I am going to leave the discussion on too many distros right here. I think that the notion of too many is subjective and open to the perceptions of different people. In my humble opinion, people are educated enough to realise that Ubuntu is the main Linux distro out there. If there are some people that cannot tell XP from 7, then fair enough, but they are most likely part of the previous generation of Digital Tourists (whereas most of us on here are Digital Locals).
    This is also my answer to your musings that Linux should have a locked down windowing system - while some hate choosing between competing products, others relish the chance to choose what they like best. I believe this is what our entire worlds business model is based on, no?
     
  5. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    What if the program I want isn't in the package manager? It's brand new, I want it.
    What if I make a program, but I don't want to provide it to the mass. What if I have a Beta version to give to a user? Plus, I lose control of my installation by putting it on the package manager.

    Exactly, and I don't want anyone else touch my setup with my permission. The last thing I want is malware with my software or ads delivered with my software, where I am not getting a penny. Including useless toolbars.

    So they are regulated or not? If they are not, then allow me to post malware on it. This is dangerous, as it makes people think its a safe place, but its not regulated. Imagine every Windows program, including malware and viruses, that exists on that Linux package manager. Not only it will be a huge mess, but with the number ofo application using the same name and icon as another, but has malware or a virus in it, would be astonishing. It needs to be regulated. Like a retail store. Retail store decide if a product maked to the shelf or not. Those that are rejected/


    If it's a click of a button, then ok.

    The reason why it doesn't update the libraries, is that some program might not work properly with the new library files. You don't need to have the "Visual C++ 2005 Redistributable". You can have all the dll files with the program. Some are just lazy and installs the entire package of library files, even if they just use 1 dll file. Stupid and lazy people are everywhere.

    Fonts
    Although the Windows style font is a more traditional looking font that is proven to be legible and efficient, I actually prefer the look of the first font.[/quote]
    Ya right.

    Wow, I know I do typos a lot, but come on! I don't understand a thing. Sorry dude. I'll wait until you edit that. :)
    Anyway, if you think the Linux font is easier to read, than I think you need a new monitor.


    I don't think you ever used Windows.
    First of all, you can adjust the ClearType level with a nice cool wizard. Start > type: Font, and you have all the font related options. Also, it's available in Personalization panel. Also the cool thing about windows, is that you can click on the picture which font you want to change, and picks it from the box. Makes it easy to know what you are changing, plus you can mix font based on your preferences.


    Windows UI Decisions (bad ones)
    So to be able to right click and open a CMD here, I need to go into the registry? Even for a seasoned geek like me, the registry is still a scary and unforgiving place. I wouldn't poke a registry with a metaphorical stick, if a digital one existed.
    [/quote]
    That was for legacy Windows.
     
  6. GuilleAcoustic

    GuilleAcoustic Ook ? Ook !

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    it turned into a linux windows fight ....
     
  7. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    No it has not. You have not read the thread since the beginning.
     
  8. lp rob1

    lp rob1 New Member

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    The original topic was that Steam is coming to Linux. Now it is a slagging match between me and you about Linux vs Windows. So I guess it is time to spend another half an hour attempting to rationalize your arguments...

    If the program you want is not in the official repositories, then there is a high likelihood that it is in a PPA or the equivalent if it is geared to be a consumer-friendly release. This also weeds out those true developmental programs from those that a developer actually wants to work for the masses. If they put their program in a PPA and/or get it included in the repositories, then they have taken the first step into getting normal people using their software.
    Of course, there are also those developmental or cutting-edge software that is not available from the repository. Often there is a PPA for the developers themselves to ease installation as a team, but when there isn't, you just have to remember that this is developmental software not geared for public use. It is designed for the developers (who compile their software on a daily basis) and 'beta-testers' (who need to know how to compile things). The common man never needs to use a beta release like this, and shouldn't anyway as the release is probably full of bugs and very unstable. In fact, if you read my comment on how the Ubuntu official repositories are regulated for stable software, this explains why beta software is often not in there.

    Please do not quote only part of my reply on that topic. You say that 'Are they regulated, or are they not?'. If you quoted that entire section as one instead of that one line, that statement is irrelevant and invalid.

    Now, the dreaded Redistributables. Although it often makes sense to only include the DLLs that a program needs, there are benefits to going the shared library approach, for both the developer and the user. This still doesn't explain why newer versions of the library cannot simply expand over the previous library, instead of creating a completely new one.

    I do not believe that I ever said that I thought the first Linux font was easier to read. I just said that it looked nicer. Fonts, along with most customizable options, are a personal preference (that's why it comes under Personalization in Windows).
    And that sentence reads to most people: but remember that the human mind reads words as a whole, rather than as individual letters. There was actually some research done on this at Cambridge, which proves to be an interesting read.

    As for changing fonts for the entire system easily - nope, the method that you describe is changing the look of ClearType fonts, not the actual font. To do that I either need to go into the registry or change the font of each element manually - both arduous tasks.
    And finally - the registry. It is still horrendous, even in Windows 7. Personally I think that any kind of registry structure is bad for application data, as each application often needs to do things differently than the next one, but directories like the registry enforces a schema. I much prefer the configuration file system, which is easily maintainable.
     
  9. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    You are the one that is making this into a flame war. I just expressed my opinion onto why I think Linux won't get widely adopted. It is my opinion, based on my experience with Linux. I mentioned that several times.

    I never said that Windows has 100% perfect everywhere, at every version of Windows, either.

    My opinion stated that Linux isn't ready for the mass market yet. People say that the WiiU won't sale at all, and be Nintendo biggest flop. That's fine. That's their opinion. Unlike Windows 8 bashers, I provided points.
    It's one thing saying "Windows 8 is a catastrophe", and another saying "I don't think it will be good, because of this, that, and this and that". I maybe wrong, which I invite anyone to clear this up. Which you did. But you are the one turning this as a flame war.

    I guess next time, I'll go and say "Linux (or wtv OS) sucks! It's crap, A 5 year old kid can do better in 5min. Yea it will be a black screen, and it would better than Linux". And just leave. But I am not an idiot, nor a troll. I provide reason to what I don't like, and try to understanding the vision behind the OS or product.

    The quote was for reference purposes. If I did not reply correctly, that means simply I didn't understand you properly.


    My and your current knowledge can't answer that reason. I am sure Microsoft has its reason.
    My only guess is that Microsoft deprecated code, and replaced with new ones. Some software might work, other, very old, might not. I guess, that the reason why the deprecated them, is to have a more powerful versions of the function, in either providing more info or be adapted to modern hardware, all by not having a mess of old API codes. This is my assumption. Maybe in a few more of years of experience in my work field, I'll better be able to answer this.


    So you admit that what I was saying is true. Why don't you simply admit it then. "Yes, I agree, it's not Linux xWindows forte, yet".

    Good point. But I think, if you can make it better, do it.

    Heuu yes. The option is there in Personalization panel. However, Microosft did decide to remove it in Windows 8. So you'll be right after October 26.

    That was to inform, that if you prefer Linux font look, than you can get something like this using ClearType panel.

    Software can choose either. Some uses ini (or any text base file they want), other choose to use the registry. Other choose to mix things up.
     
    Last edited: 2 Oct 2012
  10. GuilleAcoustic

    GuilleAcoustic Ook ? Ook !

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    I'm learning many things, thanks to you too :D .... please go on, but without the flames :lol:
     
  11. lp rob1

    lp rob1 New Member

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    First off, I apologize that I referred to this thread as a 'slagging match', and I apologize for giving the impression of flaming. I do not want a flame war, I want a perfectly justified discussion (if a heated discussion at that). Over these last few days I have always looked forward to your dissection of my arguments, and how I will structure my counter-arguments. Still, pressing on...

    Fonts - again. What I said was: "Fonts, along with most customizable options, are a personal preference". I personally cannot fault the first font that you presented, but then again I am not a font designer or a person that looks at all the details, which you may be (and certainly present the knowledge of). So to me, the fonts look fine, and in the case that you presented, the first font looks better than the second Windows-like font.
    Now I still cannot find any option that lets me change all of the system fonts with one option. Say, for example, if I preferred Comic Sans to the default Sergoe UI - without going into the registry, or having to manually change each and every element of Windows to the new font, can I set it as the font for everything? If so, how? Just to get it clear, I hate Comic Sans with a passion, and am just using it in this example.

    The good thing is, we seem to have whittled down the number of arguments we have in each post now. So it seems that this discussion is coming to a close. It is good that others like Guille are learning from it though.
     
  12. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    About opening the command prompt in Windows 7. I just remembered.
    You can press and hold Shift key, and right-click on a file/folder, you get additional items like (varies depending on where you do it and on what):

    -> Open command windows here
    -> Open in new process
    -> Open in a new window
    -> Open as read-only (Office files)
    -> Open as protected mode (Office files)
    -> Pin to Start Menu
    -> Copy as path
     
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