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What about the rest of Europe

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Kovoet, 13 Jul 2010.

  1. NuTech

    NuTech New Member

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    The problem with that mentality is that you end up with situations like we have in England where immigrant communities end up exiling themselves because they feel it's more beneficial to all involved - they don't have to feel 'alone' in a foreign country and the natives don't have to worry about their precious status-quo being disrupted.

    If you have unrealistic 'integration' expectations, you'll find that people will resist or buck it completely. This leads to segregated micro-communities when people of certain ethnicities flock to specific areas of the country.

    Said communities are then left to fester and start harbouring resentment for their host country. Because they've been allowed to segregate themselves so thoroughly, they start to wonder why the countries laws and traditions do not reflect their own, after all, their 'world' now ends at the boundaries of their own community. This leads to severe culture clash.

    This is why immigration has to be a give and take - please excuse the cliché, but on both sides tolerance is indeed needed. After all, as much as we like to kid ourselves that it isn't true, we need immigrants just as badly as immigrants need us.
     
  2. lp1988

    lp1988 Well-Known Member

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    Then what do you do when the other side refuses to show tolerance?

    One of the problems is that in the cultures there are some major differences on a fundamental level, and one of the biggest is religion. Those of us that has lived with very religious people know that there are some things that you can't discuss with them. This Leads to conflict as two people whom believe something different, and do not accept any other explanation, will in time alienate each other.
     
  3. thehippoz

    thehippoz New Member

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    yeah have to agree with some here.. I mean you can argue it's a security issue but that's about as far as it can stretch

    I don't see this as a rights issue or am I missing something =o
     
  4. MacWalka

    MacWalka New Member

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    I don't see anything wrong with having to integrate with the customs and laws of a country you emigrate to. If I had to live in Dubai for example, I couldn't kiss and cuddle in public or get drunk in public for example. And that is probably the most 'western' muslim cities. The fact is, the UK is becoming too politically correct for my liking. Its one thing to have tolerance for other religions but it is quite another to alter entire ways of life because of them. Wee things like councils saying Happy Winter Festival instead of Happy Christmas are not uncommon now. Other things not related to other religions are things like not being able to take photos of your kids in school plays.

    I know quite a few muslim families and none of them want us to change our way of life to accomodate them. They just want to be able to come to this country, work and live without racism, bigotry or harrassment. I grew up with my best mate who is muslim. His family integrated well but retained many of their own customs too such as wearing the headscarf, fasting, cooking Pakistani food (which is class by the way) etc.

    I'm not expecting immigrants to this country to celebrate Christmas or start eating bacon. But I do expect them to learn our language and not be angry when I eat a roll and bacon. Just like if I went to Saudi Arabia, I would learn their language and wouldn't drink alcohol.
     
  5. Cabe6403

    Cabe6403 Supreme Commander

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    My local area had a thing a few years ago were they put up a "Merry Christmas" banner. It was taken down in under a week as people of other faiths such as Muslim complained that it was offensive to them.

    I do believe that if people move to another country they should respect the traditions and culture of that country and not try to force their culture and beliefs onto their new country of residence.
    I'm all for them keeping their own traditions and I will quite happily respect that.
    The school I went to, for example, was a catholic school. They accepted students of any faith when the school held a mass (on days like the feast of all saints etc) the other faiths were expected to attend but no participate in the mass.

    On the flipside, when Ramadan rolls round my school set apart a room for Muslim students so they could go there during lunch and interval.
    Some students and their parents complained that the school shouldn't serve any food Ramadan and students shouldn't be allowed to bring food in.
     
  6. Nedsbeds

    Nedsbeds Badger, Slime, Weasel!!

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    ah, that must be why all the British ex-pats in Spain are starting up tapas restaurants instead of greasy spoons then?
     
  7. tsukirade

    tsukirade New Member

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    More elaboration from me. I expect that that people come here speak English, take any tests in English (Driving test for example) and respect our customs and beliefs as they would expect theirs to be respected. I dont want to be, as someone else has pointed out, "Banned" from wishing happy Christmas because it may offend another religion, but then have that religion blazened every where for there own festivals (dont take that as I dont enjoy other festivals, i think it quite enlightening to join in). If they choose to eat the food or celebrate our holidays thats a choice. Speaking the language of the country should be something they have a level of proficiency in.

    Right now there does seem to be 1 rule for one cultural set of people, and 1 for another - yet no fairness. Its not equality but positive discrimination.... a point a lot of people miss.

    Sarcasm aside, setting up a business is integration - you are promoting the local economy.
     
  8. MacWalka

    MacWalka New Member

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    Just like all the Indians, Italians, Spanish here set up British restaurant?

    Silly example, nothing wrong with setting up shops that sell your home country's produce etc. However, the ex-pats that go to Spain and can't speak Spanish annoy me.
     
  9. Cabe6403

    Cabe6403 Supreme Commander

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    Nothing wrong with bringing some of your own culture across. Just don't try make it the norm or persecute the natives who do run the tapas places for not "catering to their needs".


    On a semi related note: http://tnerd.com/2010/07/13/2-5-million-muslims-threaten-to-quit-facebook-on-21st-of-july/

    Some of the demands they listed were:

    Think of all the different facebook pages that are either insulting or making fun of Christian symbols like God and Jesus. Imagine if Christians reacted like this.
     
  10. Nedsbeds

    Nedsbeds Badger, Slime, Weasel!!

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    That was my point (albeit sarcastically) , in response to the post I quoted (that's usually how quotes work)
     
  11. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    While the topic here has slowly moved toward the classic example of one religion getting offended at another religion's holiday decorations, it still doesn't address the question of the extent to which foreigners must integrate in order to appease the local population.

    Some Christians (and maybe some non-religious folks) get upset when non-Christians object to "Merry Christmas" signs. The cry goes out for those foreigners to integrate and accept the local people's culture. What happens when the non-Christians are natural born citizens of that local area?

    I personally have never seen a non-Christian complain about Christmas decorations. I've heard quite a few people complain that they can't put up decorations because they believe there will be complaints from non-Christians, but this is usually a perception and not necessarily based on actual experience.
     
  12. Nedsbeds

    Nedsbeds Badger, Slime, Weasel!!

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    With such stories, isn't it usually a case of jobsworths anticipating offence, rather than any real complaints?
     
  13. Teelzebub

    Teelzebub Up yours GOD,Whats best served cold

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    I have never come across that one, non-Christian complaining about Christmas decorations.

    That's taking it too far.

    But I do remember a east london mosque trying to get a court injunction to stop woman walking passed it on the same side of the road, And they would have had to cross a very dangerous road.

    Of course it was refused but to even to try is a bit much
     
  14. Da_Rude_Baboon

    Da_Rude_Baboon What the?

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    I think this is the real problem.

    My partner is a health and safety professional and most of the stories you hear or see written in the paper about "health and safety gone mad!" are complete rubbish. The health and safety legislation prohibits very little but its local authorities fear of being sued that causes them to enforce stupid rules under the excuse of 'health and safety'.

    I suspect a lot of the complaints about religious holidays and the "dont offend the muslims!" stories are the result of local authorities trying to be 'inclusive' or are terrified of being seen as "non inclusive".

    IMO integration is like friendship. It can not be forced on people and it has to be built on mutual respect and sharing (some of) each others beliefs and ideas. You don't have to like everything but there must be enough common ground there to form the friendship.

    I think Frances policy of your a French citizen first and everything else comes after that has some merit. In politics the state should always be separate from religion.
     
  15. Nexxo

    Nexxo Stopped treating this country as if it was his own

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    While it is true that some Middle Eastern countries do not display the cultural and religious tolerance that the West appears to demonstrate (events in Northern Ireland notwithstanding), don't believe the hype too much. Christian and Jewish Iranians live very happily in Iran, have their own places of worship and strongly identify with their Iranian nationality.

    Moreover, just because some fundamentalist countries are intolerant, does that mean we have to reciprocate? I thought we were the good guys?

    You are still imposing your cultural values on other cultures. While it is not always wrong to do (female circumcision is pretty much evil whatever your frame of reference) I really don't think it does anything for womens' rights to force them to not wear something that you perceive them to be forced to wear in the first place. Shouldn't the correct moral stance be to leave the choice to them?

    When ever someone goes: "Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with immigrants..." you know that the associated opinion is going to be BS. Especially when it is preceded by a vague: "A man had... and he was forced to... by "the Muslim community".

    ********. Read that unadulterated ********. The Daily Mail is full of it: unsubstantiated stories of how someone was forced to bend to the politically correct demands of not offending Muslims. But there are never any facts to back it up.

    "Winterval" was an initiative launched in Birmingham by the City Council in 1997 to try and cash in on as wide a consumer group as possible (it was a failure). At no point did it have anything to do with Muslims or Sikhs complaining about Christmas. At no point was political correctness involved. It was purely commercially motivated.

    Now I want anybody to give me clear, factual links to anything that proves that Muslims or Sikhs or any other cultural group has ever objected to Christmas being celebrated in the UK.

    Substantiated facts, please, not Daily Mail gossip.

    Substantiated facts, please, not Daily Mail gossip.
     
  16. lp1988

    lp1988 Well-Known Member

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    If I came across as thinking that this is a general issue I apologise, There are few to no problems in most countries. I don't think Saudi Arabia and Egypt would be so popular tourist places if that was not the case.

    We are only the good guys in our mind, like the Taliban think they are the good guys in their mind as well :D
     
  17. stuartpb

    stuartpb Well-Known Member

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    We have crossed swords before on the whole immigration/ integration issue Nexxo, but I want to add my thoughts here.

    I live in a small village just outside Doncaster. Doncaster became a government dispersal zone for asylum seekers and immigrants at the height of the influx. This meant that our town saw a large number of single men entering into it, and the less well off areas, like my village, saw a disproportionate amount of these immgrants becoming residents. We saw houses being snapped up by property developers, who were reaping the benefits of buying cheap properties, and then converting them into HMO's. This had an adverse effect on the prices of properties within the whole village, where prices were already much lower than the national average. I know this as fact, because I was a manager of a lettings company at that time.

    Now I fully understand why people wanted to come to the UK, especially when they were coming from oppresive countries like Iran etc. The problem was though, was that most of these new residents were young men, who have no intention of trying to integrate into the community. There were several problems, culminating in a riot in our village, because the tensions had got out of control. There were several stabbings, and our local pub was smashed up by the immigrant group of men involved in the riot. We even had armed police at either entry point of the village, refusing to let anyone into it.

    Some of these young men have been abusive to young girls, and even physically attacked some girls too recently. They have their own shops, and do not frequent the other ones in the village. They will not associate in any way with people who have lived in the village for generations. The immigration population here is also very transient, and this brings with it other problems too.

    On the other hand though, we have a growing community of polish immigrants here now, and they are often family groups, who do try to integrate within the community. They respect their neighbours and they put as much into the community as they take.
     
  18. Kovoet

    Kovoet New Member

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    On the other hand though, we have a growing community of polish immigrants here now, and they are often family groups, who do try to integrate within the community. They respect their neighbours and they put as much into the community as they take.

    Now this is what I am talking about, getting stuck in and not causing any animosity and the ones that are should sent back to where they came. Why because they have been given a chance abused it so send them back as it's costing tax payers with all the work it takes to fix all the damage caused and the policing of the area.
     
  19. stuartpb

    stuartpb Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid it's a lot more complex than just the immigrants not making the effort. First, the government was placing unfair strain on the dispersal areas, and councils within these dispersal areas were not evenly allocating people throughout the areas. This resulted in parts of the dispersal areas experiencing a large increase in transient, immigrant residents.

    Another problem is that because a lot of the immigrants were transient, they weren't interested in laying down any roots in a particular area. It didn't matter whether some felt a part of the existing community or not, because many were not staying here permanently. This caused friction between the regular residents, and the new neighbours.

    Thirdly, it was looked down upon if someone mentioned any immigrant related problems/issues to the local council, as the racist/bigot card was often played, instead of the council actually listening to some valid concerns. In my view, this made the problem much worse than it already was. At no point were the people of my village informed that our town and village had become a dispersal area by the government. This also raised tensions and suspicion, both towards the council and the immigrants.

    The locals should also accept some responsibility, as some weren't, and aren't welcoming at all towards the new neighbours, and some were/are downright hostile. But the same could be said of the new neighbours too. I remember walking past a gang of immigrant lads, with my then 8yr old daughter, and they were obviously shouting insults etc. at both me and my daughter. I would have loved to smack one of them right on the nose for that, and I think that is what they were wanting. There are many more similar stories to be told here in this village, and I have witnessed more too myself.

    I think there is a rising number of people within the UK that do not want to be, or have any interest in being a part of the UK population. This is evident in the number of young Muslims who are calling for Sharia Law to be brought into the UK. It's also evident when you see masses of immigrants who show absolutely no interest in becoming a part of their community. It isn't speculation, and it isn't gutter press spiel either. I know what is happening, because I live in an area where it is happening. I see it happening for myself.

    It's too easy for people to deny it is happening, especially if they are wrapped up in their nice little suburb, and have no clue what is happening in less privileged areas of the UK. That's not directed at anyone in particular, but it is the case a lot of the time.
     
  20. thehippoz

    thehippoz New Member

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    this is the problem I see with iran.. a joke for a judicial system.. I wouldn't really put them over other dictatorships like north korea

    no voting (other than the fake elections they hold), cleric run.. what is there to like about the iranian government? the people I'm sure would love to see it become so much more- but how can they do anything.. I mean they still stone people in 2010

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...lan-to-stone-woman-to-death-for-adultery.html
     

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