Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by CardJoe, 20 Feb 2009.
I build my own and the power of the internet helps me fix it. The total cost to me is the parts
I just bought my first Mac, an every-box-ticked-13", and I also just finished building my first ever desktop (a similarly high-end i7 Vista x64 system). I've gotta say, Mac have it really damn easy what with having control over their company's products that borders on the totalitarian. Because they're the ones designing, making and retailing they can afford to waste all that time on pretty perforated bits of aluminium and brightly-coloured advertising. Poor old PC builders have to make something incredibly complex work with something that's not only also very complex but also essentially broken in numerous ways (something like Vista).
I find it strange that Sony did so badly, because I think they're the PC equivalent of Mac. Very, very expensive, excellent design. Their problem is pretty much only that they don't control their software and that their quality control is a bit lacking, though they are of course much more cutting edge...
... I forgot to add, in fairness, the the desktop is in Lian Li V1000 case.
Which is Mac G5 clone. Fanboy!
It's quite easy to understand. Apple makes shiny, "nice" things, dumbed down for every ignorant out there to use. PC is almost always identified with Windows, which is so dumb it's hard to take. PC =!= WINDOWS, IDIOTS!. But Linux is too hard for most Apple owners to understand (oh my, it uses more than one brain cell to use, unlike the one-button Apple shiny stuff).
Basically the survey shows the percentage of idiots in the society.
Lenovo position - easy to understand, too. Nothing but problems with them recently.
As it has been said here, most people who buy macs don't buy them because they want a new laptop or computer, they buy them because they want a mac. So of course they are going to be satisfied.
Having said that, a lot of companies that make windows machines install so much crud on the machines and don't really give most users any idea of what they need or don't need (without getting advertising and money making involved) so they are shooting themselves in the foot.
you know what they say: "ignorance is bliss"
I'm suprised no-one made penis joke yet…
Lol so its not a fashion accessory you just find it beautiful. I can't fathom how someone could be so entranced with how their computer looks, honestly I think apple computers are pretty lame looking but to each their own. As to this survey, from my personal experience Apple users are satisfied with their machines even if it does not work right.
I think Dell Business offer the best service ever.
1- Even if you have no business, you can get machines from Dell Small Business... no question asked
2- If you call to order you get insane deal and free updates on parts.
3- Everyone except the sale rep is local.. meaning for me everyone is Canadian... well for me. And I NEVER waited more then exactly 2 min on the phone.
4- You don't have to call for tech support, you can chat!
5- No one treat you as an incompetent.
6- Solid machine (metal), awesome keyboard and mouses (point mouse and touchpad), all quiet), powerful machine, great LED display NON-GLOSSY ultra bright (lets say that 100% of brightness from other laptops, is 50% for this one, where even when I use my laptop, I sometime want to reduce the brightness but I can't because it's already on minimum ), loud speaker, thin optical drive, thin machine, light for what it gives you. Oh and the best: 1 screw full access to the system and easy to change parts even the motherboard (CPU not soldered it, it's replaceable). The CPU, GPU, Northbridge, RAM, power phases, all put on reverse so that the palm rest and keyboard stay cool and backlit keyboard with ambient light sensor. Yep, I have the Latitude E6400. I can go on...
7- Great feature that not even a Mac has: eSATA/USB combo port, smart card reader (with a countless one), SD card reader, descent sound card, DisplayPort with Audio, replaceable battery.
8- Minimum warranty is 3 years with Next Business Day service. You can not go lower than this!
9- When a replacement machine arrives, you get to keep your system until you receive the new one. Yes, Dell allows you to swap the HDD's. Shipping both ways is payed.
10- if a part breaks, Dell will send you a professional technician (yes, I tried it), when you want, at the time you want to replace the part for you, even if its to change the eject-able optical drive. Or if you want, you can do it yourself, again shipping both ways is paid by them.
11- Full service manual is provided, + recover partition + clean, empty, fully updated (from the day you receive it) Vista disk (Dell logo in system properties only) + driver disk + Vista 64-bit option + System comes clean with only: drivers, easy to uninstall PowerDVD (but you won't because Vista Business does not come with a DVD-codec), and Roxio. NOTHING ELSE.
12- Can give you 9 hours battery (pushing it of course) with the 9-cell battery with the Nvidia GPU
Now THAT is what I called satisfaction!
Oh look, another Apple bashing thread...
Sorry, but the PC-fanboy-ism is rife here --notably from members with a post count in the single digits. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Has anyone ever considered that Apple may be on to something? I mean, seriously? I built my own PC and I like to think that I can get my head around Linux. But I also own an iPod, an iPhone, an Airport Express (as a travel wi-fi router) and they are all built to last, rock-solid in operation and easy to use. Their laptops are just the most ergonomically and robustly designed units around. Their designs get copied and emulated time and again.
I bet we're all ever so satisfied with our PC's here --despite the numerous entries in the tech Support forum. Compatibility issues, driver problems, Windows BSOD's. And our entries in the modding forums: if PCs are so great, why do we feel the need to improve on them? The reason Apple Macs don't get modded is because you don't need to.
I'd love to own an Apple notebook because I think they're gorgeous (if a little heavy for my tastes), but the simple fact the keyboards aren't spill proof means it's an automatic no sale as I really don't want to 'spill-kill' a grand's worth of kit. I'll stick with my ThinkPads for now.
Wil's MacBook 0 vs. 1 Cup of Coffee, spilt by me
My ThinkPad 5 vs. 0 Cup of Coffee
I've not run into any driver conflicts with Windows 7 thus far on my X60s yet either.
Nexxo does have a point. As usual. How many people here have actually used any of these products to make up their own mind about it? Very few I would wager. But from my own experience using my sisters macbook as compared to my compaq I would go with the compaq everytime. But that of course is my personal preference and not a reflection on society as a whole.
I would strongly disagree with you, modding has nothing to do with PC's being inadequate, but more with people who have a DIY attitude. Some people will ALWAYS value a custom build more than anything prebuilt (no matter how good people claim Apple's build quality to be). These people mod because they want to mod, not because they're forced to in order to make something decent. No one in their right mind would mod a mac, I mean pretty much all of the brand name comes from their cases now since the internals are basically a PC. Basically people buying macs and building PCs come from a totally different mindset, I would think you would understand that since you seem like a really intelligent person who considers that people are actually different.
So you're a happy Dell customer.
When I tried to order a laptop from Dell Germany I had to find out that all their employees in Germany [even the technicians working for their hotline] are from Eastern Europe. "Not a bad thing, it's not like they're any stupider than Germans", I thought. True, but they hardly speak any German.
It took me 10 calls to order a laptop that was on offer after being told on a Friday to call on next Monday as that would be the start of the offer. So I called back on Monday just to hear from someone else that the offer ended on Friday. Ordering online didn't work because the link in their mail lead to 404-land. My first sentence with the sales team became "Hi. Just put me through to your boss, thank you." because there was no way any of the sales people could help me. They hardly knew what I was talking about.
I had to give the person who finally got what I wanted every single piece of hardware with order number so he could enter that as a custom build because he couldn't find the offer anymore.... eeeehhh... okay. So I did that and he said something like "1,900 Euro please", "Hmmm... nope. 1550", was my answer.
In the end I got it but I can't recommend their sales people in Germany to anyone. Ever.
To be fair though their support is awesome. The display showed a line, then another so I tried to call them and got told by the automated voice "Your estimated waiting time is... more than half an hour". So I chatted to a technician instead of talking to a support person first and he set up an exchange within 3 days. Another technician showed up and changed the display in my kitchen.
Best support I've ever seen with any computer related company.
Hurm.... I'm a hell of alot happier with dell's service than Apple's... I mean hell, I can't even get phone support from apple, All I wanted to do was ask a question about my old ipod and I had to drive 35 min to their closest store and wait in line. I had a question for dell, I called up, was put on hold for 10 min (while watching TV mind you ) and then got my question answered by a really funny indian dude.
Apple is going to have a better satisfaction rating, the following cartoon applies to their warrantee service as well as upgrading one of their computers.
you drop it off, and if anything is wrong with it, they transfer your files over to a "new" one (i.e. a factory refurb) and give it back to you.
also, the build quality on their ipods is getting to be absolute crap. I have had 5 die in under a year (all replaced under the same warranty) and the last one is dieing a very slow death the last 2 months, out of warranty, so I'll be jumping over to something else asap
hum, I modded the only mac I ever owned into something actually useful.... a trash can. And as Vash said, some people actually like to do stuff to make it BETTER. or because we like to work with our hands.
I have used Mac, PC and SunSparc for nearly 15 years professionally (as a tool, not support) with Mac and PC at home as well for personal use.
I have built all my desktop pcs apart from two. Why? Because I like to tinker about and have a rough idea on how things are put together. Also, I like to be able to put in what I consider to be best for my use. One size definately does not fit all.
Sunsparc without doubt had the best hardware in terms of build quality, with Mac the worst. The PC, well at least you got what you paid for. IE Cheap = crap, expensive = reliable hardware (there are exceptions to every rule).
I run both Linux and XP on my mac, with the occasional foray into OSX when i have to. They both run on the macbook pro as they do on my M1330. But here is the REALLY big snag for me:-
M1330 = £750
Macbook Pro 17" = £2800
Now, you may assume that apart from screen size, the mac is a much higher spec machine. Nope. Same 4gb, but the processor is a couple of pegs down. It was bought 6 months before the M1330, but a new one of the same spec was the same price at the time I bought the M1330 (I checked, just for a laugh). The M1330 has a DVD drive that reads all the same formats as the mac, but mounts them in under half the time it takes the mac. The M1330 keyboard doesn't randomly decide not to acknowledge the first key typed if you stop typing for more that 20 seconds. The M1330 doesn't toast your epidermis to a crisp after being on for an hour. There is more, but I wouldn't want to bore you too much.
Just one last thing. I have had to use Dell support twice on two different machines. (Both times through my own stupidity). What a fantastic experience. Within 24 hours a courteous AND knowledgeable engineer turned up, changed the part (one had to trouble shoot first). All at a time I had requested at a place I had requested. With apple I have had to package the machine up and deliver it to an 'approved apple service center' or shop. Why? It's always been the apple hardware expiring so why do I have to have the inconvenience? Especially for over twice the price. Surely I can't be paying that much for an OS based on an open source project?
Yes, windows is utter crap. It has become so convoluted and stuck together with sticky tape and string that it is never ever going to work properly for what it is meant to do. Lets hope Windows 7 was developed by a TEAM and not a conglomerate of commitees brainstorming and feeding ideas to different departments...... well, you have to have hope.
Linux, such an admirable idea which seems to be finally coming of age. Yes, there are some very ropy bits of software and some seem to be written for use by aliens from another dimension who use logic so different from ours it would take Deep Blue a year to work it out. But, on the whole it does now work and it is stable, really stable. In fact, ubuntu and puppy linux (which I am familiar with) both are more stable that windows AND OSX.
OSX Unstable? Ok, nice mac marketing. Define stable? I personally don't call a greyed up screen with a nice 'your system is unresponsive and needs to restart' indicative of a 'stable' os. At least windows has the honesty to blow up in style and restart for you. It is pretty, granted, and for the complete vacuous simpleton sheep we now seem to breed the one button click and go is great. Being linux based it is probably really good for the complete IT techead who knows his cli inside out and exactly how a linux system is hung together - Hooray. BUT I am neither of those, and it drives me nuts. What if I want to tweak something, I can't. I just don't have the time or knowledge to do it. In windows you can have a good root about and find a file somewhere to change. Not in OSX, not as easily anyway.
These things are all tools to do jobs. They aren't bits of jewlery. My dell is such a good tool. Reliable, responsive, well built, good battery life, portable, adaptable without having to buy contrived adapters as it has standard sockets (display etc). My mac is always the last choice. In fact now I only use it for my consultancy business as that is what the trade I'm in uses.
I always advise people who buy a mac to question what extra or better tools they get for all that extra money if it is for personal use. The ones who still buy are normally the ones wearing £150 trainers.......
The best thing about this thread is how people choose to omit facts or features to backup whatever they say.
A cheap Windows laptop is not similar to a MacBook Pro. A MacBook Pro is thin. It has all sorts of neat features not found in most PC laptops - backlit keyboard, LED display, motion sensors, built in webcam (and decent) not to mention Mac OS X and the array of software you get with it.
Yes, Macs can be perceived to be more expensive. But I don't think it's as simple as saying laptop A is £700, MacBook Pro £2800 = rip off!
Oh really? You challenge me! I accept!
Dell Latitude E6400 (14inch) VS MacBook Pro (15inch)
Size: (Dell win)
Dimensions: (Dell Win)
Height: 0.95 inch (2.41 cm)
Width:14.35 inches (36.4 cm)
Depth:9.82 inches (24.9 cm)
Mac wins on height, but any pressure on the screen will brake it. I can put high pressure on my machine lid close and the keyboard won't touch the screen nor brake. As a student, I see A LOT of Mac broken screen as the pressure is too high in their bag.
Weight (Dell win)
Lat: Weight: 4.3 lbs/1.95 kg
Mac: Weight: 5.5 pounds (2.49 kg)
Same for both systems.
Basic Warranty: (Dell win)
Lat: 3 year warranty with a professional technician that comes to your place when you want
Mac: 1 year... nothing special. Lose laptop when in service.
Features: (Dell win)
Lat: eSATA, standard Display port, VGA, backlit keyboard, ambient light sensor, 2 mouse type (pointer and touchpad), descent webcam, free-fall sensor on HDD.
Mac: mini-Display Port (proprietary (I mean no one uses it other than Apple)), backlit keyboard, only 1 mouse (touchpad), descent webcam, ambient light sensor, motion sensor.
Software: (Dell win)
Lat: Same Mac applications included in Windows already that does the same job, and access to an ultra wide library of open source, freeware software.
Mac: "Mac OS X and the array of software you get with it." as you say, which actually you need to pay (iWord for example).
Same (both none).
Same (both are in metal)
Screen: (Dell win)
Lat: NON-glossy 1440x900 LED backlit 6-bit panel, ultra bright.
Mac: Glossy 6-bit panel, LED backlit, 1440x900
Battery: (Dell win)
Lat: 9-hours (with 9-cell battery) surfing web. Changeable battery. Support 2 batteries for 19 to 21 hours of battery life.
Price: (Dell win)
Lat: 1630$ Canadian
Mac: 2500$ U.S (so more with the exchange rate)
The rest are identical.
Mac did not win at any point.
I DID my research, thank you very much.
After 7 months into my job at a computer store, here's what I think:
The majority of our repairs are removing malware and replacing dying/dead hard drives (sometimes needing to reinstall Windows as a result). Here's the thing: almost no one uses decent internet security, and the same for backups - nobody makes any and panic when they run into a problem. I'll occasionally hear a customer complain about the problem, how "PC's" and Windows suck and how they want to buy a "Mac". But had they had paid for Kaspersky or Norton or whatever for $69 a year (for 3 computers) and paid $100 for a backup hard drive, they wouldn't have either of the problems they were having and would have a familiar UI that works with just about everything and costs less than the Apple.
I've also had a couple of Apples come in - I remember a PB G4 with a bad CD drive (we couldn't replace it), an iMac G4 that needed to be upgraded to Tiger just to use the 3rd gen nano, an iBook G4 that wouldn't boot after a security update (couldn't fix it), and most recently a new MacBook with a broken screen (which the owner told me, and I quote, "the guy [at the Apple Store] told me not to even bother paying for it because they'd charge me up the ass.") Sounds like great service to me; they can't even do a repair on their ridiculously expensive machines for a decent price.
I'm also sick of hearing about how bad Vista is and how great Mac OS is - most people that I talk to haven't used either and have just heard it from the press. Then I tell them that the Mac OS is just different, and that alone doesn't automatically make it better, though it has it's advantages - but so does Vista. I then tell them about all of the little enhancements in Vista that make it a pleasure to use, and that it's the OEM's fault for building low-spec'ed machines with tons of bloatware that make everyone think it's so slow. We used to have a demo Vista Basic box running on an Atom processor with 2GB RAM and AVG Free in the background, and people thought it was great. (sidenote: anyone who thinks a clean install of Vista runs like crap on an Atom processor - I think you're wrong.)
As for me, I really do not see the advantage of running more expensive computers from one brand that has so many snobby followers. The "PC" world (I hate that term considering all computers are personal) may have it's arrogant followers, but they're all online. The Apple owners, on the other hand, are very much present in real life and make a big stink about how they "made the switch", and it's irritating to listen to (plus nobody else really cares that much). I don't think the Apple UI is dramatically better or easier to use, sometimes it's on the contrary. I really enjoy using my Acer One, and Apple has no similar product anyway (the iPhone, a netbook? WTF?). Windows works fine for me, and although it's not perfect, I know taking simple steps and spending a little extra money helps a lot, seeing as those customers outfitted with security software and an external hard drive with SyncBack almost never have to return for service. And most of all, I really don't need to make a fashion statement or show off my little light up logo or make a stupid "bong" sound every time I push the power button. Plus I don't make a stink about my position unless someone asks me, then I give them the facts, which I know unlike most Apple users who get their info from the Get a Mac marketing campaign. So what do you need to know after reading all of that stuff? Windows machines work at a high level of satisfaction for me in many forms (and for most people, when properly equipped)...and Apple machines? As other posters have said, a lot of it is the hype - I set up a customer with an iMac his daughter bought him, and he loves Boot Camp since he can actually use his stuff, and he feels "at home" even after 3 months using Leopard. I'm sure the OEM's bloatware causes most of their problems with overlapping functions, slowdowns and incompatibilities which in turn cause their users to be annoyed (I agree with Lenovo in last place - they have so many "Think" utilities, it's absurd).
God, that was long winded and unorganized! But feel free to ask me for any of my other retail observations, you may be surprised.
What are the system specs? CPU, GPU, RAM, Hard Drive. Don't forget that the Mac's screen has a higher resolution and an LED backlit display. Oh yeah and multitouch trackpad.
If you're going to do your "research" you need to present all of it. Not just the parts you like.
And just so we're clear. I use a PC at home that I built myself, but I've also used and owned 3 different Macs which I also loved. My PC is here so I can game.
Separate names with a comma.