1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

News Apple's new MacBook Pro blocks upgrades

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by brumgrunt, 14 Jun 2012.

  1. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

    Joined:
    22 Mar 2008
    Posts:
    4,712
    Likes Received:
    122
    2 weeks? Hardly. Apple keep replacement parts in stock in their stores for all current models, and the most used parts for old ones. Turn around for a full logic board replacement on a current model is usually 2-3 days. The only time I've heard of Apple's repair times going over a week is when they have to order the part in, and that's usually because it's an older machine.

    SODIMM slots would add thickness, and in a machine where they are trying to shave every last bit off the dimensions, it counts. It's exactly same in the Air, and if you're that bothered about removable RAM/drives, Apple will always sell you a standard MBP, which is thicker for exactly that reason - user replaceable parts.

    Not sure why you think the new MBP has a non-removable SSD. The iFixit teardown clearly shows it is a blade SSD, same as with the Air you stripped down recently. Okay, new pins for some reason, but it is still removable with ease.

    I've done a RAM upgrade on a laptop in the past, but that's only because it came with an aneamic 2GB. The new MBP has 8GB minimum, and I can't see any OS needing more than that for the lifetime of the computer.
     
  2. Bakes

    Bakes New Member

    Joined:
    4 Jun 2010
    Posts:
    886
    Likes Received:
    17
    Not necessarily. Firstly, if Apple are fast, they could do next day delivery, making the repair process fairly painless. If you mean time faster than that - well the cheaper of the two retina 15 inchers has no options - you could relatively painlessly keep a couple of those in stock.

    In any case, since when did memory fail except whilst overvolting? I mean, in my 5 years of messing around with computers, I've had one set of memory fail, and I traced that to me putting 2.5V into it and accidentally breaking the heatsink off.

    It's less to do with costs - it's to do with spacing. Every component in the new MacBook Pro is fit together extremely precisely - there simply isn't any extra space. If you look at a standard SODIMM, you'll notice that most of the space on it is just left-overs from when memory chips were larger. They've saved a lot of depth by knocking out all of the sockets. The same with SSDs - if you compare the size of the SSD in the new macbook pro to the size of the SSDs normally sold, the difference is dramatic - the new SSD is far, far smaller.

    If you meant CPU or GPU sockets - well no laptop has those.


    The main flaw with the laptop in my eyes is it's thin-ness. I own a last-gen (ie current gen 2 days ago) 15 inch macbook pro, and I bought it because of the high build quality of the case. I've managed to crush the case on one side, such that you have to hold dvd opening open in order to access parts. The bottom of the case doesn't fit on right anymore - and I can only imagine that the old cases were more sturdy than the new ones.
     
  3. munim

    munim New Member

    Joined:
    30 Oct 2006
    Posts:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think it's just good engineering. Having the ram soldered on makes for less weight and less manufacturing complexity and size reduction. Compare: sodimm slot means extra plastic bits and metal pins, adding cost and requiring more space.
     
  4. Mosquito

    Mosquito Active Member

    Joined:
    24 Mar 2011
    Posts:
    934
    Likes Received:
    30
    Wow BentAnat... a lot of generalizations there....

    I have upgraded every single laptop that I've ever owned... first one I doubled the RAM, and had to replace a hard drive that died, and replaced a wireless card that fried, second one I upgraded the hard drive and RAM, netbook I upgraded the SSD and RAM, 2nd netbook I swapped HDD for SSD and upgraded the RAM...

    "Most upgraders go as far as RAM/HDD and GPU" .... yes... and how many of those can you do with the new MB? None, so then... yeah, upgraders good luck with that. What's left beyond that anyway? PSU and optical drive? If you're replacing the motherboard... that's more of a rebuild than an upgrade in my book

    I'm sure not everyone uses externals... I don't, never have, why? Because I could upgrade to whatever I need ;-) I've only got 2-3 friends that use externals, and I don't believe any of them bring them with them....

    I must admit, though, that I am quite impressed by the display, and hope that it spurs much talk and upgrading for other manufacturers...


    All this talk about not needing more than 16GB of RAM makes me think that no one uses them for any serious work... right now my work desktop has 16GB of RAM, and I'm pushing close to that being used... I don't even do photo editing and/or video editing, but I do have to run several VM's for work, and they use a lot of RAM... And true, no OS will likely require more than 8GB of RAM, but since when do people only boot up a computer and not use any applications?

    I guess I just fit into the group of people who like the options for the "just in case" scenarios...
     
    Last edited: 14 Jun 2012
  5. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

    Joined:
    14 Apr 2004
    Posts:
    4,955
    Likes Received:
    201
    Why would Apple go through all that trouble when the service center could just as easily take the hard drive out and put it in a new machine? The customer is instantly happy, and Apple can now take its time sending the old machine back to wherever to be refurbished.
     
  6. fdbh96

    fdbh96 New Member

    Joined:
    29 May 2011
    Posts:
    1,894
    Likes Received:
    33
    Tbh, the answer to most of these 'why not' questions is because Apple simply didn't want to. They know what the majority of its customers want and gave it to them, admittedly for a premium.
     
  7. Harlequin

    Harlequin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    4 Jun 2004
    Posts:
    7,071
    Likes Received:
    179
    Customer service is the biggest plus point given by those who buy apple products = you walk into the store and a new customer feels `part ` of the experienc. with the product apple control of the entire supply chain is why the US military are consulting with Apple ; as Apple have access to everything , everywhere they need , and are efficient from raw materials to finished product.

    Ofc the flip side is , unlike a laptop which can have X amount of specifications with the same model - we all know what the spec is for the new Air PRO , so spare parts can be kept on site
     
  8. DbD

    DbD Member

    Joined:
    13 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    484
    Likes Received:
    10
    They've even glued down the battery. So on my laptop after 3 years battery is getting on a bit - they all degrade, even "apple" ones which btw are identical to the batteries every other laptop uses. On my PC I just go to ebay, buy another one, put it in and battery life is like new. For an apple I have to send off my laptop so I can't use it, then pay a small fortune for them to replace it.
     
  9. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

    Joined:
    22 Mar 2008
    Posts:
    4,712
    Likes Received:
    122
    How many people use VMs in their line of work? Not many, in relation to how many computers are out there. Most people use a computer for internet tasks, Word/Excel and maybe some in-house software that is about that demanding.

    Even if you look at the "pro" market Apple is aiming for, we're talking about photograpers/videographers/iOS developers/Xcode developers and so forth. Sure, they may need plenty of RAM, but 16GB is certainly sufficient even in to the future. Apple aren't really marketing themselves at people who want to run lots of VMs on a laptop - they'll point you in the direction of a desktop workstation.

    No OS will require 8GB of RAM to run any time soon. Not even 4GB. Hence a system with 8GB is going to remain usable for a long time.

    Basically, your high RAM usage is a rare case scenario, and also why you're using a desktop.
     
  10. Guinevere

    Guinevere Mega Mom

    Joined:
    8 May 2010
    Posts:
    2,477
    Likes Received:
    170
    I've upgraded my current MBP three times.

    2GB > 8GB
    160GB HD > 120GB SSD
    Superdrive > 1TB HD

    But I've now hit the limit of the machine. Not in the bits I could upgrade but in the CPU... it's just not fast enough for my needs. That'll teach me to skimp out on a CPU choice when buying a laptop!

    Never again, this time I'm buying the top of the line and based on experience with another i7 machine I should be able to lower by build times from 20 seconds down to sub 4 seconds.

    I have nothing against low spec machines that can handle a bit of upgrades (Like the normal MBP) but when buying a top of the line pro machine it doesn't matter. Just buy it with decent spec to start with.
     
  11. r3loaded

    r3loaded Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2010
    Posts:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    31
    This is probably Apple's way of making AppleCare an almost compulsory purchase for its Mac buyers. The problem arises when you're out of warranty and your RAM goes bad (which does happen). For any other laptop, you can buy replacement RAM for peanuts and be on your way. If the RAM goes bad in this, you're probably looking at hundreds for a replacement motherboard plus labour costs.

    And glueing down the battery instead of using tri-wing screws in the last model serves no purpose other than to spite the customer for daring to repair their own system.
     
  12. Guinevere

    Guinevere Mega Mom

    Joined:
    8 May 2010
    Posts:
    2,477
    Likes Received:
    170
    Do you genuinely feel that's the ONLY reason they did it this way?

    Or is it also possible that it's just easier for them to build a machine like this knowing that >99% of their customers wouldn't ever think about unbolting an internal battery?
     
  13. SchizoFrog

    SchizoFrog New Member

    Joined:
    5 May 2009
    Posts:
    1,574
    Likes Received:
    8
    CAn I ask what the warranty is on these products? As with sealed units, once something, ANYTHING dies... outside warranty, end of Laptop.
     
  14. Mosquito

    Mosquito Active Member

    Joined:
    24 Mar 2011
    Posts:
    934
    Likes Received:
    30
    Well, being in software consulting quite a few people use VMs in my workplace, due to client environments, restrictions, requirements and the like. Only reason I'm using a desktop at work is because I've yet to be assigned to a client where I'm required to be on-site, so I work from our office; otherwise laptops are issued. I guess I must be in the minority, although both my internships and now my fulltime job have required me to run VMs, and the two internships were laptops.

    That's sort of my point, though, about "Most people are using it for word/excel and internet use"... if that's the extent of their use, why would they be getting a Pro? Seems like a waste to me. Where as if someone actually needed the Pro, they might want the ability to upgrade with out having to let someone go to do it... Where I had worked previously they would buy baseline business laptops and then upgrade the RAM because it was saving them quite a bit to buy RAM in bulk orders and upgrade that way.

    I guess, the whole "sealed box" thing is fine for me when it comes to phones, tablets, MP3 players, and things like that, but for a computer it just doesn't makes sense to me.
     
  15. r3loaded

    r3loaded Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2010
    Posts:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    31
    There wasn't any particular reason for them to do so, and their other machines use screws. So why change it?

    Standard warranty is one year, AppleCare extends this to three years. Though in a family friend's experience, they did fix a MacBook that was a week or two out of warranty.
     
  16. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

    Joined:
    22 Mar 2008
    Posts:
    4,712
    Likes Received:
    122
    The point still stands, that your career is very much in the minority - even if everybody in your office uses VMs!

    Why did you ignore my next paragraph about Apple's marketing towards "pro" users? I do know people who buy MBPs just for use as your average laptop, but they tend to buy the 13" models. My point towards pro users is that Apple's target market isn't people like yourself, utilising multiple VMs etc, but their more traditional "creative" audience, where 16GB of RAM is certainly more than enough.

    That said, we can all agree that black box isn't for everybody - and if you don't want it, buy the other MBP design!
     
  17. jrs77

    jrs77 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    17 Feb 2006
    Posts:
    3,487
    Likes Received:
    103
    I don't understand all the fuss really. Either you buy an Apple and live with it's limitations or you don't. Nobody forces you to buy their products.

    In my experience with Apple products I've never had any issues and Apple was allways very fast at replacing or repairing my MacBooks back in the days when I used them.
    These days I don't use 'em anymore as Adobe CS runs just as good on Wintel machines.

    For normal people not having alot of understanding about systems doing only office and media I still do recommend Apples notebooks tho, as they're easy to use and maintain. And in question there's still the Apple-store that solves issues within a day or two, especially if you're a business-customer.

    Tech-forums sure are not the audience for Apples products, but techies are only a tiny minority of PC-users.
     
  18. Unicorn

    Unicorn Uniform November India

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    12,720
    Likes Received:
    446
    1) Nobody here cares about what trusted reviews covers. This is bit-tech.

    2) Apple news is technology news. Your argument is invalid because this is a technology site. It's not rocket science.

    I don't see this as a good move at all. It's not something that will be appreciated by the more technical Apple users and is certainly not something that makes their already expensive products any more affordable. Don't get me wrong, I see the business sense in it and there's no doubt that they'll make silly amounts of extra profit from it, both from users opting for the higher spec models right away to the spares which will undoubtedly now be entirely Apple provided, branded and priced. I just don't think it'll go down well with a large percentage of people and it goes against my recyclable computing philosophy. This is one of the things that I can't understand about it. If the memory is now soldered to the board and a chip gets corrupted or damaged, the entire board has to be replaced. What happens to the old board? It's possible that it will be sent back to Apple to be repaired and sold again as an OEM approved second hand component, but this injects cost and waste into the repair cycle. This is only a theoretical example, but bear with me:

    The old way:
    - Computer develops RAM fault
    - Computer is sent to repair centre
    - Repair centre remove RAM module(s), replace with new ones
    - Faulty RAM modules are scrapped to be recycled
    - Customer gets computer back with a small bill for a simple repair and an affordable part

    The new way:
    - Computer develops RAM fault
    - Computer is sent to repair centre
    - Repair centre replaces motherboard
    - Customer gets computer back with a large bill for a complex repair and an expensive part
    - Faulty motherboard is sent back to Apple to be tested and repaired if necessary
    - Motherboard is either beyond economic repair and is scrapped, or is repaired by Apple
    - If the latter happens, the board is sent to a repair centre as an OEM approved 2nd hand spare to be installed in another faulty machine

    There's a lot more time, work and cost involved in fixing or upgrading an Apple MBP now, and I don't think that's a wise move. Again, I can see where they're coming from - I haven't got blinkers on when it comes to this subject. I know that the space saved by putting chips directly on the board is valuable in Apple products and there are weight saving benefits as well, but in my honest opinion, the benefits don't outweigh the cost. It's already cost the product line a lot of popularity, and I think that's one of the most important things with the MBP range.

    I say that as someone who loves Apple products and generally the company itself. I'm not a fanboy, just an admirer of their work. Their products have benefited me a lot in the past 5 or 6 years. I've used an iPhone since they came into existence and I've performed upgrades and repairs on countless Apple devices from the humble iPod all the way up to the most expensive Mac Pro and iMac. I vowed to buy myself a current (2011-2012 version) MBP for work before the year was out, but eventually changed my mind. I'm going for a "no nonsense" Thinkpad instead, because I get a lot more computer for my money than with the MBP and it's not as expensive to begin with.

    Also, there's a typing error in the article:

    There's an extra "too" there ;)
     
    Last edited: 14 Jun 2012
  19. r3loaded

    r3loaded Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2010
    Posts:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    31
    The problem as I stated before is when the warranty runs out. Ok, the average laptop owner won't know how to fix it, but the local computer repair shop certainly does. Now that everything is soldered down and glued together, it becomes impossible for every the repair shop to fix it. The customer now has two options:

    1) Motherboard replacement from Apple for hundreds of pounds.
    2) Buy a new laptop that they don't particularly need for over a thousand pounds.

    Then there's the whole ecological argument - it's incredibly wasteful that people will be forced into throwing away a perfectly good device made from expensive high quality parts just because it needed a £30 RAM replacement.
     
  20. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    4 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    12,601
    Likes Received:
    1,910
    Two toos? Whoops! I'll fix it as soon as I'm back in range of a proper computer - using the CMS in Android is possible, but painful...
     
Tags: Add Tags

Share This Page